Wanting advice on taking my 11 yr old.

[creektrails]

I want to take my son caving but first of all am wondering if he's too young. My cave has a 130' straight down pit to get into. It really scares me thinking about what could happen, and am wondering what is the safest way to proceed. there is a thin lip going into the pit. I would of course train him in a safe area until his ascending and descending including changing over are second nature. I am wondering if a young person should be top rope belayed while he uses a seperate single rope? or is that too many ropes causing too much confusion? Perhaps I should wait until hes older. I also havent talked to the ultimate decision maker in the house I just hate devoting 6 to 8 hours in a day to anything that Im doing without involving him. Hes very athletic, balanced and a good climber. Hes intellegent and doesnt jump blindly into anything that he deems dangerous. Maybe Im pushing it too quick. I would appreciate and seriously consider your input.

[chh]

Have you asked your son if he wants to do it? That would be where I would start. Then I might take him on some horizontal trips first. Or has he been already?
Provided he's already a horizontal caver the backup belay/person on a second rope is a good idea. However, confusion with 2 ropes isn't something that HE has to be ready for. That's something YOU have to be prepared to manage. Would you be able to get him out of the pit quickly without his help regardless if he were on or off rope (emphasis on quickly)? If you can't confidently say yes then I think you should rethink it. Also there's communication. You may want to be able to reassure him verbally or even visually for his first pit. Maybe a shorter pit?
That being said, if he's game I think it's great you can share this with him and especially that he can get started so young. I wish I would have started caving at 11!
Good luck.

[ek]

Hes very athletic, balanced and a good climber. Hes intellegent and doesnt jump blindly into anything that he deems dangerous.

Sounds like he's responsible in the ways that matter for getting started in vertical caving, and he's in good physical condition to go caving. One thing remains...

I want to take my son caving but first of all am wondering if he's too young.

I just hate devoting 6 to 8 hours in a day to anything that Im doing without involving him.

Maybe Im pushing it too quick.

Does he want to do it?

If yes, then I'd encourage the both of you to go caving together. Like you said, make sure that he (and any other beginning vertical caver you take out, regardless of age) is comfortable and totally proficient on the rope. I would suggest that anyone about to go vertical caving be schooled (through hands-on practice, of course) in the following topics:

• system assembly
• system adjustment
• ascending (with an emphasis on climbing efficiency)
• self-management of bottom tension
• downclimbing
• descending (including techniques for managing friction)
• descender lock-off
• both changeovers

(Those are the things that SUOC teaches beginners before taking them vertical caving.)

I do not recommend belaying someone on a separate rope as they climb or rappel in a pit. I doubt many other folks would recommend it either. While unnecessary complexity is to be avoided, that's not the primary reason. A belay in a free-hanging pit can be actively more dangerous than no belay at all. See this article.

While it is always possible that any person rappelling could lose control and be hurt or killed, in general the following rule holds (for anyone--adult or child): If they're ready, take them caving. If they're not, have them practice more first.

[creektrails]

Thanks for the replies. Im still torn on the top rope belay. The pit walls are fairly close at most points. You are only free hanging for a total of about 30' or so. The article seemed to be talking about open pits mainly. I'll see how well he trains. THe top belay just seems like a fail safe to me.

I am looking for gear right now for my son. I have a tree in my front yard with a 50' limb. I will start his training out there. (just a couple feet off the ground to begin with) I will see how he handles the instruction and how well he applies himself in learning the essensials before I even think of bringing him to the pit. He is stoked about the experience.

ek, all the areas that you suggested he learn first, I think are essensial also thanks for the tips.

One other thing, before I let him go into the cave w me Ill expect him to be able to climb the 50' rope 3 times concurently, changing over top and bottom each time. The tough part about a pit like this is the top 30' is open and then when you are most worn out you have to negotiate the lip. Thanks again for your help.

[chh]

If you're nervous about managing the second belay rope just take along a third and do a bottom belay with someone at the top to make sure the device is threaded correctly. Somewhat standard proceedure for new vertical cavers as I'm sure you're aware and also less complicated. You can also have two ropes and just rappel with/alongside him. This doesn't solve the belay issue (unless you have a third), but it does solve the reassurance issue. You'll just have to judge what he needs more.
You might also consider finding a lip somewhere along a cliff or something, even off a deck or structure, to negotiate before you do it over the pit. Changing over on a free hanging rope is a skill he needs, but it's nothing like negotiating a lip.

[creektrails]

If you're nervous about managing the second belay rope just take along a third and do a bottom belay with someone at the top to make sure the device is threaded correctly. Somewhat standard proceedure for new vertical cavers as I'm sure you're aware and also less complicated. You can also have two ropes and just rappel with/alongside him. This doesn't solve the belay issue (unless you have a third), but it does solve the reassurance issue. You'll just have to judge what he needs more.
You might also consider finding a lip somewhere along a cliff or something, even off a deck or structure, to negotiate before you do it over the pit. Changing over on a free hanging rope is a skill he needs, but it's nothing like negotiating a lip.

excellent suggs. rapelling beside him is a great idea. What about froging beside him on the way up? would roping him to me with a QAS or long pigtail be a bad idea? that would elimanate the need for a belay. But maybe a no no. That lip at 130' is a scary ordeal even for the seasoned.

[Stridergdm]

A couple of thoughts.

My son is currently 10yo and short for his age, soit may be a while before I take him on a true vertical trip.

But when he was younger, I discovered two factors:
1) mass distribution. Younger kids (so I don't think this will be a problem with your 11yo) are top heavy. A chest harness (not a frog harness, but a real weight bearing harness) are HIGHLY recommended. By 11 or so I suspect this is far less of an issue.

2) room to work. As I mentioned, my son is short. The few times we've tried frogging, what I've found is he just doesn't have much room to work in terms of the equipment in front of him. This makes for a very inefficient setup. Now that he's somewhat taller, this may be less of an issue. I will be trying again this summer. But depending on how tall your son is, you may find that he can execute everything safely, but still have a harder time doing it due to his size.

That said, what about a shorter first drop? 130' feet is a long first drop in my opinion, regardless of age. I've described SRT as being very lonely. There's not much like being 100' off the deck realizing that you're really on your own and there's only a 1/2" or so separating you from suffering "sudden deceleration trauma".

Your idea of being on a 2nd rope next to him is in my opinion a great idea. You can watch him, you can help him if he gets into trouble and you can keep him company. A bottom belay, if the drop zone is safe enough, is also a good idea.

In any case, have a good and safe time.

[chh]

excellent suggs. rapelling beside him is a great idea. What about froging beside him on the way up? would roping him to me with a QAS or long pigtail be a bad idea? that would elimanate the need for a belay. But maybe a no no. That lip at 130' is a scary ordeal even for the seasoned.

Frogging beside him should be fine. I wouldn't tether yourself to him though. I think this has the potential to be even more problematic than a belay from the anchor. If he's got a bottom belay he doesn't need it for the rappel. And he doesn't need it climbing either so long as you make sure his system is set up well. I've taken several new cavers into their first pits this way, and it seemed to work well. Like I said, if they've had training they should know what to do. A lot of time it seems that with new vertical cavers confidence is what is needed and having someone there adds a lot to that confidence, and in the end, they're still doing it on their own. It's hard to trust that half inch for the first time as Stridergdm so accurately pointed out.
I would say though, that if the lip is a "scary ordeal" for the seasoned vertical caver, it isn't a good choice for a first pit for your son or any other new caver.

[NZcaver]

For what it's worth, I've "tandem-instructed" many times using 2 adjacent ropes and a long tether between myself and the other person. It works well when descending and also the couple of times I've used it climbing, although it takes a little more effort to synchronize your climbing so you're not too fast or slow. During descent, positioning yourself slightly above the other person is usually best but I often move below to provide guidance when descending past a difficult lip.

Assuming one is competent and confident in one's own rigging and rope techniques, the use of a long tether should be simple and non-problematic. We use this all the time when teaching diminishing-loop counterbalance rescue techniques. I often find it convenient to rig a tether with a Prusik hitch for easy length adjustment.

Have fun.

[chh]

Assuming one is competent and confident in one's own rigging and rope techniques, the use of a long tether should be simple and non-problematic. We use this all the time when teaching diminishing-loop counterbalance rescue techniques. I often find it convenient to rig a tether with a Prusik hitch for easy length adjustment.

Have fun.

Just my thought on this. I think that "assuming one is competent and confident" is of the upmost importance with this technique. Even arguably moreso than with a belay. Obviously people familiar with a variety of rescue techniques wouldn't be unduly troubled with the tether. However, lets consider the "average" caver, who in my experience, is not. What happens when the backup tether fulfills its use and now we have one person hanging from another's harness? On rappel it's not a problem so long as the "trainer" has accounted for the possibility of a sudden addition of weight. While climbing again, probably no one hitting the deck, but even those who practice pickoffs don't typically do it with the weight of another climber on their harness. Again, in my own experience. At least with a belay, should the terrain be acceptable for such you are already set up to lower or haul.
However the tether method does offer the ability of one person to give a quick help in the case of a bad lip, for example. If a person can't negotiate it a person above can tighten the tether and assist, if an assist will help. However you can do this as needed while tandem climbing another rope without being tethered the whole time. The prussik adjustment is nice though
At any rate I think the possibilities discussed in this thread make it very apparent as to the importance of taking training seriously, whether we're learning or teaching. We're all in the same boat together when we're caving.

[NZcaver]

You have highlighted some very good points. I would recommend rigging both ropes releasable, with the spare rope flaked out at the top - preferably near somebody who knows how to lower through a Munter hitch.

Assuming one "rigs for success" the likelihood of catastrophic failure of one rope/anchor system is very remote. Similarly, it's unlikely one of the people on rope will sporadically lose consciousness. One event or the other would be awkward but generally manageable, especially with the assistance of a person tending the ropes at the anchor point. Both events occurring simultaneously might be slightly more tricky.

If you haven't already realized, probably the greatest value in a tether system like this is the psychological angle. "Stay with me, watch what I do, you'll be fine, look we're tethered together." Although more instructor-intensive, in my experience this system works very well - especially with more challenging students young and old, and folks who are physically disabled or have other issues.

We are perhaps over-complicating the issue for this gentleman and his 11 year old, but these things do happen on the forum from time to time.

[creektrails]

great replies and instruction. thanks for the ideas. I for one apprecitate the value of redundancy, especially when taking a young person. So whether we use a belay or a tether i know that it will be of great mental value not only for my son but for his mother who wont be there.
The idea of thinking about the worst case senario is also good. Not only using the backup but having a plan in case the backup is needed.

Now about the spare rope flaked out at the top. Do you mean a third rope? I was thinking that if something happened and the tether was put into use, that I would still have his rope to attach him back onto.

[Stridergdm]

great replies and instruction. thanks for the ideas. I for one apprecitate the value of redundancy, especially when taking a young person. So whether we use a belay or a tether i know that it will be of great mental value not only for my son but for his mother who wont be there.
The idea of thinking about the worst case senario is also good. Not only using the backup but having a plan in case the backup is needed.

Now about the spare rope flaked out at the top. Do you mean a third rope? I was thinking that if something happened and the tether was put into use, that I would still have his rope to attach him back onto.

In this particular case I believe what he means is that when you rig your rope, you don't put all the extra rope at the bottom of the cave. i.e. many of us were probably all trained the same way, "take one end, do a tensionless hitch around the tree, toss the rest down the hole".

It's quick and easy. Of course it means the rope at the bottom is useless (except to land on.

More folks are moving to the idea of sending as much rope down the hole as needed and then tie off at the top and leave the extra rope at the top of the hole. That way if something comes up, you can use it. (say as an extra edge line, or to rig in a quick haul system).

So no, a 3rd rope is not necessary.