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Re: etrier on lips

PostPosted: May 4, 2010 5:33 pm
by underdog
I don't usually have lots of diffculty going over a lip on rappel, but have truly appreciated a french wrap on tough lips with lots of rope (weight) below. Crossing the lip on ascent is the hard part, particulary with alot of rope weight. In these cases a tethered spacer can be nice (like a log) to create room for the ascender between the rope and the ground. QAS with a long leash is also nice. I have never tried to lift the rope with anyone on it, I'd rather just help them place the QAS and get out of the way. Maybe thats because I am weak. If you are climbing in tandem - a pig tail is vitually required for the top climber if there is a lip - which means changing over to it on ascent. Not sure I'd ever go for an etrier over a spacer and/or pigtail. A pig tail can also be nice on descent when rope weight is a concern.

Re: etrier on lips

PostPosted: May 4, 2010 5:54 pm
by ek
underdog wrote:If you are climbing in tandem - a pig tail is vitually required for the top climber if there is a lip - which means changing over to it on ascent.

When tandem climbing, a pigtail is a very, very good idea, but it is possible to cross the lip without one, even if you're the top climber with the full weight of the bottom climber below you. To do so in a manner that most cavers would consider safe, you must bring an additional ascender or Prusik loop. Once you get up as high as you can get--i.e. you're right at the lip--attach this third gripping point of attachment to the rope (anywhere above your center of gravity is fine) and then you can safely remove your top ascender. Do that, and then put it on the rope above the lip. (If you're frogging, then at this point you may want to stand up some in your footloop to get your Croll even higher, and then move your upper ascender even higher.) Finally, remove your lower ascender(s) and replace them above the lip, and remove your extra ascender.

I haven't seen this done with ropewalking systems, and I'm not competent with any of them so I can't really speak to that. I have done it with my frog system, both in practice and in a real situation. Try this somewhere safe, with the rope set up to lower, before you try it in a cave. Or just use a pigtail. (But it's a good technique to know if you end up tandem climbing when you hadn't planned to.)

Re: etrier on lips

PostPosted: May 4, 2010 6:18 pm
by Dan Henry
LukeM wrote:
Dan Henry wrote:Sort of along the same lines, I have crossed some really nasty lips going down by using the footloop of the upper frog ascender as a step below the lip to get a bit of slack in the mainline to get the descender safely past the lip. Frog and Texas systems both utilize such a footloop, so you don't really need an etrier.


Dan, could you explain in a little more detail? Are you attaching the ascender just above the descender when you do this?


Pretty much. CLearly, you'd need to keep moving the ascender down in order to not load it, so you sort of step up, move your rack (micro-rack in my case) down a bit, then hang from it while you take off the ascender or move it down a bit more. The basic idea is to use what you've got on already to solve the problem.

Re: etrier on lips

PostPosted: May 4, 2010 6:48 pm
by chh
Dan's solution is a good one, but I've seen that one go bad as well with a greasy lip. Basically a "butt slam" that ended with the descender below the lip (actually pinching a hand) and the ascender above the lip. The caver actually was weighting both things momentarily. But, this is FAR preferable to the alternative without the descender or other backup like a french wrap. Who knows where that would have ended up. The caver didn't have any safety on their rack other than the ascender. This technique works great so long as you don't screw it up or you have two cowstails of different lengths. Even if you do screw it up though, it's not that difficult to get out of, it just takes a sec. Not so easy with a ropewalker. The great thing about it though is that your've already got a foothold in place so long as you can get your foot out of it if you find yourself in the above situation.
As far as pig tails go (we're talking a seperate lip access line here right?), You can munter that off to the anchor for a belay past an etrier and then the caver puts the rappel device on below the lip, undoes the belay and away they go. But again, I've never really been in a situation where an etrier was necessary but I don't doubt there's one out there, somewhere, or for somebody.
Dan is right. There isn't a "good" or "graceful" way all the time. But it IS good to do it safely.

Re: etrier on lips

PostPosted: May 5, 2010 10:58 am
by underdog
Once you get up as high as you can get--i.e. you're right at the lip--attach this third gripping point of attachment to the rope (anywhere above your center of gravity is fine) and then you can safely remove your top ascender. Do that, and then put it on the rope above the lip. (If you're frogging, then at this point you may want to stand up some in your footloop to get your Croll even higher, and then move your upper ascender even higher.) Finally, remove your lower ascender(s) and replace them above the lip, and remove your extra ascender.


Yeah, this method does work. Once was the bottom climber (on tandem frog) in Incredible where the top climber had no QAS and no pig tail was rigged, I had to climb up to him and give him mine. I always have a QAS. I have had difficulties with this method where the lip is more rounded and the rope is in contact with the rock (padding) for a long distance making the reach very difficult. On rope walker, one must pop the chest box in addition to moving the QAS up over the lip - I have found this somewhat awkward as it is difficult to get high enough to reach over the lip before removing the chest roller - because they are such a high peice with little "float". I have reached a point where, given my druthers, if there is a lip there will be a pig tail. The pig tail will also facilitate fast rescue of the rope stranded caver by making it easier for the rescuer to get on rope.

I very much prefer descending backups below the device rather than above. A back up above the rope so often requires switching over to climb to release the back up once it was been weighted. A french wrap or the like below the rappel device (far enough below to not become entangled) is much easier to release, and uses the bely device itself to help arrest the fall (assuming the belay is properly attached).

Re: etrier on lips

PostPosted: May 5, 2010 12:03 pm
by ek
I believe there is also no evidence that a backup attached to the rope above the descender[1] has actually ever prevented a problem. The only story of one working that I've heard was a horror story about someone falling twenty feet, breaking bones, and then finally having it engage after their hair got pulled into their descender. If you have to grab onto it to move, and let go to stop, then when you panic you will grab it. You cannot practice actually being about to fall to your death. Furthermore, a friction hitch or other device above the descender would likely melt or damage the rope if activated abruptly at high speed--a device under the descender would just be like another brake hand on the descender.

And with racks, you should really have your non-brake-hand available to spread the bars. With a full rack, that's the primary way you're adjusting friction and controlling the rappel. But even with a micro-rack or similar device, in my opinion it is advisable to be practiced and able to vary the friction by spreading or compressing the bars. Using a French wrap below the descender provides for this. Using anything above the descender requires that your non-brake-hand mind it full time.

[1]This is with the exception of the industrial method using the Shunt, which like all methods must be done just so, and which is completely unlike the way people usually use the Shunt as a backup.

Re: etrier on lips

PostPosted: May 5, 2010 12:28 pm
by underdog
Well I don't know about "no evidence". Was once next to a person who was descending over a mud lip, the mud gave way causing the person to fall, engaging the prusik that was rigged above the device. Would the person have caught themselves? Maybe, but the prusik was decidely weighted, and had done its job. The prusik also was wedged deep into the mud. As this was a down trip only, we had minimal ascending gear. He had to rig his prusiks to climb up and it took some serious effort to get the tightened prusik loose while it was crammed deep in the mud lip on a weighted rope. I was on a rope next to him at the time. Not the best thing, but better than nothin'.

Re: etrier on lips

PostPosted: May 5, 2010 12:39 pm
by ek
Cool--that is the first I've heard of a case where a caver fell and was caught by a backup attached above the descender, without severe injury.

Of course, as you've been saying, the trip could have continued seamlessly had the Prusik been rigged below the descender.

By the way, a French wrap (a.k.a. autobloc), is probably a better choice than a Prusik, as it is easier to disengage (and that can be an issue even when it's rigged below the descender).

Re: etrier on lips

PostPosted: Sep 20, 2011 8:23 am
by Caver John
I like most of u have also experienced this problem of getting over a lip, partially due to achrophobia.
Ive considered using an entrier rigged just above the lip. Mine has a daisy chain also so u could clip into the daisy chain, climb down the ladder over the lip and then rig your descender if you already Havnt while up top.

Negotiating a lip when begging a rappel becomes even more difficult when you extend your descender to allow a prussic below the descender. It's that much more distance you need to get passed the lip for you descender to clear the edge.

So I think using the entrier has it's place in this scenario.