Setting up an ascending "gym" in my warehouse

[OpenTrackRacer]

After our last trip (and 100'+ ascent) it's become clear to be that we all need to work out more to improve our technique and endurance. I have a 30' high ceiling warehouse in my building with steel beams that would make attaching a rope easy. However, going up 30', changing over, descending, changing over, and going back up, etc. would get pretty old in no time. I'd like to put a pulley up top and then two people could work together, one ascending and one belaying. My big question is ascending when tied off just to another person. It seems to be it would be quite jerky and uncomfortable for both parties. One thought I had was to attach a GriGri to a fixed structure and have the person belaying control the rope from there. When the climber reaches the top the person belaying could then lower them back down and avoid getting tugged around on the ascent.

I'd really like to hear comments and suggestions on this idea before proceeding.

Thanks!

Mike

[Bob Thrun]

What you want to do sounds like the climbing contests that are held at every NSS Convention. We atttach a rappel device, typically a rack, to some solid object at floor level, run the rope up over a pulley, and down to the climber. It works very smoothly. Two people are needed: the climber and a belayer. For teaching and adjusting slings, the rope can be locked off at the rappel device.

[NZcaver]

The method Bob described works well. It's a pretty slick process with the rope going up to a pulley and then down to a descender rigged to the structure. The person on the ground soon gets a feel for lowering smoothly as the other person climbs. Incidentally, this person is not technically a "belayer" because they simply lower the other person rather than belaying him or her to protect against falls.

Another option is to rig the rope with a Munter hitch (and usually a steel carabiner) attached to the ceiling. The end comes down to the ground and is tied off. A second person on the ground can lower the climber using little effort as the Munter provides significant friction. This is a method commonly used for vertical training, rescue training etc, where we want to be able to lower a person to the ground if they have problems. Rigging a releasable system is something I recommend for any vertical training session.

[chh]

If you've got a good person to lower you, you shouldn't really notice that much.

[OpenTrackRacer]

Thanks for all the feedback. Both methods sound good. I guess the Munter hitch has the added benefit of the friction point being between the person ascending and the person tending the rope. On the downside, I think it'll put a lot of twist in the rope. In that setup would the person "belaying" just hold onto the free rope or still run it through a harness?

I don't have a rack but I do have an ATC, a Stop and a GriGri available if we use a pulley and secure the other end to a fixed structure. I'm wondering how well that would work with the GriGri or Stop since you have to control the lever and the free end of the rope while lowering the climber. I guess if it was attached with a sling it could end up at a comfortable position for the person "belaying".

We're going to take a look at our attachment options tomorrow. The roof has large beams that we could use but we'd just have to put webbing around them and they're sloped. The stringer beams should be plenty strong and they're much smaller. They also have holes in them that we might be able to put a steel carabiner straight into. Otherwise we'd girth hitch a few slings and be done with it.

Mike

[Chads93GT]

I do the same thing, by myself, in my garage, 3' off the ground with my rope walker. I have my rack hanging from a rafter, and my rope running up into it. I also have a pully out to the side of the rack (and above it at the rafter) to keep the rope feeding straight down into the rack. I hold the tail end of the rope with my hands, or 1 hand, while i climb with my foot stirrips and chest roller only. no need for a harness as its not being used anyway as im not using a safety tether as i am only 4' off the ground, besides, both hands are tied up with the tail end of the rope. Besides..........if I simply let go of the rope I fall to the floor instantly, so no harness or hand ascender needed. it works great for solo.

Not sure how you could do THAT, without a rack and only a grigri or a stop. Works great for a solo workout.

[NZcaver]

Thanks for all the feedback. Both methods sound good. I guess the Munter hitch has the added benefit of the friction point being between the person ascending and the person tending the rope. On the downside, I think it'll put a lot of twist in the rope. In that setup would the person "belaying" just hold onto the free rope or still run it through a harness?

Yes, the Munter hitch does impart a little twist in the rope. No, the person on the ground doesn't need to lower through any device or use a harness if there's a Munter up top. This method is probably better for "basic practice" rather than for speed/distance climbing.

We're going to take a look at our attachment options tomorrow. The roof has large beams that we could use but we'd just have to put webbing around them and they're sloped. The stringer beams should be plenty strong and they're much smaller. They also have holes in them that we might be able to put a steel carabiner straight into. Otherwise we'd girth hitch a few slings and be done with it.

Taking a close look at the beams is good. However I strongly recommend against girth hitching with slings. There have been some known failures using this method. If a single sewn sling is long enough, just wrap it around the beam (multiple times if possible) and clip into both loops with a carabiner. Otherwise use a single length of webbing and a wrap 3/pull 2, or just multiple wraps tied off with a water knot. Also be aware with the ceiling pulley and floor descender method, the force of a single person on rope becomes multiplied by 2 at the pulley point. It's basically a 2:1 mechanical advantage system acting on your ceiling anchor point.

A Petzl Stop works just fine for lowering, but doesn't have the variable friction of a rack. In practice this means it's usually a smoother ride with a rack, especially when allowing for larger or smaller people, and different rope diameters. Exactly the same as when descending. The GriGri should also work, but may be a little stiff with 11mm static rope. Howver a Stop and a GriGri are slightly simpler to use and the safety handles (at least in theory) make them more idiot-resistant.

[NZcaver]

I do the same thing, by myself, in my garage, 3' off the ground with my rope walker.

Sounds like fun. Feel free to post a photo or two of your setup.

[OpenTrackRacer]

That's very interesting about the slings. I was taught to girth hitch them (I think Alpine Caving Techniques even shows this). Can you point me somewhere to read up on that? When we've used a full sling around an anchor (like a timber) we've never done wraps either (same for webbing connected to itself with a water knot). We usually use two slings for redundancy (plus often tying off the rope to a third point) but that's no substitute for good technique. I've always been worried about what I don't know that I don't know! That sort of stuff can kill you!

Thinking about what Chad was saying it'll probably be easier and quicker to just attach to one of the forks on my forklift (one even has a hole in it). Then we can rig it using the Munter hitch, raise it up to 10' or so and just ascend while feeding the rope.

Mike

[Chads93GT]

keep your hands on the pully side and you can climb till you run out of rope with the anchor only 10 feet off the ground. With a ropewalker, this also teaches you how to use your feet and NOT need to self start by grabbing the free end of the rope. Afterall, I can climb this with my EZ bend rope or even my 400' talon which is quite flimsy compared to a pit rope, and I never have to "self start". it teaches you to keep your lower foot ascender in line with your upper knee ascender eliminating the need to self start, which as you know, when your boots are covered in mud, does nothing but makes the rope muddy, unnecessarily.

[Chads93GT]

This method of mine wont work with a frog system by the way, unless someone is belaying you with the free end of the rope.

[kmstill]

I'm thinking it just might work with a frog system if you capture the rope with the hand behind the ascender during the stand phase and use your hands seperately (one on free rope, one moving top ascender) on sit phase. Will have to try it out. Alternatively maybe there's a way to sling the rack for the free rope off my harness and just use the pully up top or use a stop or similar. Time to hit the shed.

REALLY like your thinking here and thanks for posting - I've seen/been meaning to put up a treadmill but have never gotten around to it - this seems so much simpler.

[Chads93GT]

another way to do it for a frog is if you own a stop. this requires the stop, like the rack in the photo above, to be hung upside down. You would have a piece of cordlett running to the stop lever, over to a pully and down to the floor. you climb the rope, grab the cordlett and lower yourself to the floor. hence why the stop cordlett needs to be long as well. Then with the frog you can climb to the stop, pull the cord, lower yourself, let go of the cord and climb back up, repeat.

a friend showed me that idea last night. They also had a micro rack on the rope LEADING to the stop, to give more friction while you are lowering down to the ground.

[NZcaver]

That's very interesting about the slings. I was taught to girth hitch them (I think Alpine Caving Techniques even shows this). Can you point me somewhere to read up on that?

Lots of opinions on this one. Start here and read through the replies.

[chh]

Technique training and a solo workout. Nice work Chad!