Setting up an ascending "gym" in my warehouse

[Kendalcaver]

Years ago a friend of mine set up a 'continuous-loop' system for prusiking, based on a design in an old copy (I think) of Alpine Caving Techniques. I can't remember any details of the set-up, just that it worked well, and you could keep on prusiking 'for ever' on a single, relatively short length of rope, without the need of anyone else to lower you off.

I guess that the most difficult part of setting it up was splicing the ends of the rope to the exact length.

May be worth checking out?

Good luck, anyway.

[fellglenn]

There is actually a description of the endless loop in On Rope. It also discusses the splice that is needed for that type of system.

I have pondered the climbing practice a lot and a friend of mine figured out a system that does not require an endless loop but can be operated solo. Once understood, it makes sense, but can be hard to wrap your mind around this.
It is an auto self belay system for my practicing in the back yard. I could rig it in the garage, but I like rigging it to a tree. First off, I use a Valadotain Truss or a Swabbish (Depending on my mood) Friction hitch with a minding pulley installed above the hitch. This hitch is connected to a W3p2 close to the ground. A Rack is installed at about head height. The rope runs through the rack like the 2 person setup after the rope passes through the friction hitch. I have a tether (about 8 ft of small cord) that is connected to the pulley that runs down and through the biner that is holding my Friction Hitch. This tether works it way up to me where it is connected to my harness. As I climb my climbing motion pulls the tether which pulls the pulley down and releases the friction hitch which allows the rope to move through. When the Tether is slack, the friction hitch captures the progress. And I don’t fall back to the ground. When I am ready to come down, I just pull my tether and the system lowers me to the ground.

I went outside and did about 300' feet of climbing on this afternoon after I got home from work. Once you know what you are doing it takes about 15 minutes to setup which includes hauling the rope of the limb. While it is good practice, climbing SRT to 60’ then changing over and coming down and then going back up and repeating 3 times is not the same and a continual climb.

[knudeNoggin]

So do you have any thoughts about girth hitching slings around beams as a method of anchoring?

If we are talking about slings made of the common 1 inch tubular webbing, I do not see that there is any problem.

I just double checked my copy of Alpine Caving Techniques and they specifically show girth hitching of slings (backed up) for anchors.

I figured I'd try to put this one to bed.

Huh? And I was hearing "zzzzz"s!

Alpine Caving Techniques, and lo and behold...
What it does lead to is the diagram (with a cross through it) of a rope girth hitched into a ring hanger on page 75 which says "A girth hitch alone (lark's foot) should never be used, and backing it up with a figure 8 is just a flimsy substitute for good rigging." Of course this refers to rope into a hanger, not webbing around a natural anchor. ...

And by this mistranslation (Bob can elaborate), "foot" has become
the English-English pronunciation of "head".
By "backing up with a figure 8 ..." , what do they mean?
-- what is shown in Vertical, a Fig.8 eyeknot? If this be
but a "flimsy substitute", what does ACT recommend instead?
(This alone seems the "wildly" differing advice; but it seems to
begin perhaps with a Cow hitch (one-end-only-loaded Girth hitch)
and slide into the (questioned) Fig.8 eyeknot structure.)

OR (1996 edition) has a diagram on page 65 showing a sling girth hitched around a stalagmite, with a big slash drawn through it. It says "Girth hitching as a general rule is unacceptable as a rigging technique. In industry, girth hitching (called a choker) will down grade its rated strength by 1/4 to 1/3." This diagram is reproduced in the NCRC training curriculum, where girth hitching webbing around an anchor is considered unacceptable.

Of course, it will be natural for one to hesitate rigging to ANY structure
that has a circle-&-slash on it -- that's like asking for trouble.

>>>Going to order second edition copy of On Rope as well.
>>>I'll take all the information I can get my hands on (even if the sources conflict with one another).

So, On Rope, vers.2 : I'm happy to see that this part of the
world remained upright in the revision (and didn't become a stalactite):
beware the so-called "3-/4-/5-coil Prusik knots" -- they went topsy-turvy,
and what is shown is a dubious gripper at best. (This graphical change took
but one word's revision of text, i.p. "top" => "bottom" -- and no batting an eye?!)

As for the particular image of the girth-hitched stalagmite with aspersions
cast upon it, in the 1st (1989) ed., the caption favors another issue --angles--,
and reads "This situation applies to other situations that bend and pull the
rope at angles greater than 120deg." [p.62, Fig.4d] But why have a worse
angle, then? As for the assertion of "1/4 to 1/3", what OSHA gives (I take
them to be "industry" enough) is roughly 80% (1/5). But, even at 1/2, as
Bob remarks, the usual 1" tubular sling is ~8,000# (2x4k) knocked down
to a mere 2 tons: if you're plopping that much force onto things, wow!
[cf. http://www.osha.gov/dsg/guidance/slings/tables-figures.html#figure2 ]
(Anticipating confusion: the % of rated given beneath the choker table
is "%-of-CHOKER-rating", not of sling rating -- i.e., the pure strength
has already been reduced by that approx. 80%, AND THEN come these
considerations of choker angle.)

Vertical (2007 edition) is available online (for free) here. On page 48 in the knots chapter, there is a diagram of a rope girth hitched into a large ring hanger (this one is not crossed out). The accompanying text says "The Lark's Foot knot (Girth hitch) is the best way to tie the middle of a rope to a ring hanger. [..] Do not use a Lark's foot for attaching tapes [webbing] to trees or natural anchors as it can be arranged in such a way as to increase the load on the rope."

Whoa: is it the common practice of cavers to unscrew bolts so as
to be able to form a Girth Hitch (Lark's naval (<= compromising :o))
in the middle of the rope ??! -- or else haul the entire rope through ... !
The (mis)wording of the admonition moves into the mystical: a structure
in the tape anchor affects the load on the "rope" !

Three references, three wildly different answers - I love it! I feel conflicted.

But I don't really see such divergence; rather, I see a possible one (depending
on things I've questioned, unseen), and then just different circumstances.

Which should remind us to note the OP's situation (instead of hearing
"Girth hitch" and running for cover ipso facto: tying around a square
and rather frictive structure will turn the girth hitch more nearly
into the fabled "Tensionless Hitch" -- i.e., both the friction at the
3 corners and the straight side of a beam should see significantly
less deflection of the fully loaded part entering the knot.
(Here's the point to remark that Craig Connally in his book
The Mountaineering Handbook doesn't consider anything
a "girth hitch" unless it makes a severe, near 2:1-like bend
at the entry point! --this for presumed better "cinching" to the object!)

But hey - if there's no piles of dead bodies from doing it that way, why not? Personal choice is a wonderful thing.

The dead bodies might arise from generating the force to the
point it would realize a difference between Girth Hitches & others.

Side note - while I'm not specifically critical of ACT's depiction of girth hitched slings, I just realized they consistently spell prusik incorrectly with two S's (at least in the English edition). Shame on them! I may now be forced to poo-poo everything in the entire book.

But then you should maybe only poo it and use the 2nd poo on Vertical,
who use "Kleimheist" (and, nb, both of these hitches are nothing more
than misguided Girth hitches).
What puzzles me about the chapter-head photos of Vertical are the
rope ends: did they cut their rope by chewing on it? Maybe whipping
is a lost art, but ... how about some simple black electrical tape?!??!
Holy Ravel Rouser, Batman!!

*kN*



postscript:
Vertical's tables of (good, acceptable, bad) knots beg a lot of questions;
I'd not rely on this for much other than showing confusion. Using the '!' as a
footnote indicator made me laugh: "7!" otherwise seemed a powerful win
in the FF1 column (for the Overhand, "abnormally" loaded). The assertions
of the ("Alpine") Butterfly "performing badly" and not being strong come as
quite a surprise, given the cited Lyon "61-72%", CMC Rope Rescue's 75%,
and Dave Richards's equally high figures.

[ek]

Of course, it will be natural for one to hesitate rigging to ANY structure
that has a circle-&-slash on it -- that's like asking for trouble.

Personally, I just girth-hitch to the slash. The hitch jams up against the circle on either side, and then it's not going anywhere. The nuance, though, is that you have to back up to the thing behind the circle-and-slash. Then if that thing comes to be considered safe, and the circle-and-slash disappears, the rope is still attached to something (and something now considered safe).

[pub]

This method of mine wont work with a frog system by the way, unless someone is belaying you with the free end of the rope.

The beauty of your method is it can be done solo. So, I clipped an extra ascender onto the free end and weighted it down enough to keep the rope stationary while ascending. When I reach the rack I pull up on the free end to go down and reposition the weighted ascender as needed. A Prusik also works as the weighted ascender.

Thanks for the idea Chad!

[Chads93GT]

This method of mine wont work with a frog system by the way, unless someone is belaying you with the free end of the rope.

The beauty of your method is it can be done solo. So, I clipped an extra ascender onto the free end and weighted it down enough to keep the rope stationary while ascending. When I reach the rack I pull up on the free end to go down and reposition the weighted ascender as needed. A Prusik also works as the weighted ascender.

Thanks for the idea Chad!

Hmm, ropewalker or frog? im having a hard timem wrapping my mind around what youa re doing, long day at work. got a simple picture?

[pub]

ropewalker or frog? ... got a simple picture?

I only have a frog system but I'm sure it would work for the ropewalker too. Using a counterweight on the free end frees up your hands so ascending is more realistic.

Sure Chad, I shoot some this weekend...

[Chads93GT]

That would be cool. id like to see it so i could actually practice frogging, hehe.

[pub]

Here you go Chad:

The first problem I had trying your method was not having a building with a high ceiling so I rigged on a tree outside using a pulley to make lowering and re-rigging the rack easier. Next, how do I keep the climbing and free ends of the rope separated when the rack is hung on rope? Luckily I have a rigging plate so I attached the rack at one end and a quick link at the other end for the free end.

Start with both the climber and the counterweight at the bottom of each end, the climber ascend to the rack, then pull up on the free end until (s)he reaches the counterweight, release (not remove) the counterweight ascender (like down climbing) and allow rope to pass though until both the climber and the counterweight are back on the ground. Then repeat…

…unless someone is belaying you with the free end of the rope.

For the climber’s safety and peace of mind, I would still use the counterweight even with a person belaying just in case the free end is accidentally dropped, esp. if the belayer is a beginner.

[Chads93GT]

Hah I meant the counter weight dealy. thats what I can't quite visualize. How much weight are we talking here?

[pub]

How’s this:

The counterweight is my gear bag attached to a left handed ascender. I use a right handed ascender to climb but don't have it clipped-in for this photo; you can see it in the previous photo.

The weight of the counterweight depends on how many bars are being used on the rack, the type of rope and the weight of the climber. In my case it's about 1-2 Kgs using 4 bars with a PMI pit rope; adjust the weight by adding or removing gear from the bag.

[Chads93GT]

Ahh I gotcha, that makes a bit more sense. If you had a petzl stop i know you co uld rig a really easy set up for froggin with a piece of cordage on the stop lever. put the stop where your rack is and climb the same way only when you get to the stop, you pull the cordage tied to the lever and lower yuourself back down.
cool idea

[pub]

Here’s another POV:

This girl was soooo light we had to pull on the climbing end to lower her (with 4 bars)!

I'll try the stop method next, thanks!

[MUD]

Thanks guys! I'm in the process of setting this up in my house. I'll try the Stop method Chad as that sounds pretty slick!

[pub]

Please let us know how it works for you, Mud