chest harness (and ?) really necessary?

[pilinka]

I got into caving this summer, and for the first time climbing using ropes and harness. I have been reading some of the posts here regarding equipment.
My question is whether it is really necessary to buy a chest harness to use with my climbing harness. Couldn't I just rig a figure eight of webbing and then use a d-ring to clip onto the rope to keep me upright?
Also, is a croll really necessary?
If I have ascenders and footloops as well as a prusik for ascending and a figure eight for descending, will that work just as well? I am on a limited budget, and can't afford to buy a lot of equipment, but of course I also want to be safe and responsible. Much of the terminology is still greek to me but I am slowly building my vocabulary and my understanding. I am planning to get some hands on training for single rope technique from a local couple with many years experience who have offered their time and expertise before going out again. They use the frog system i think.

[quinoa]

Yes, they are necessary. A croll attatched directly to your seat harness works only if you have a chest harness to keep it tight to your body.
There are other systems you can use. The Texas uses 2 lead ascenders and is what most climbers use to jug (ascend) ropes.
If you are going to be dropping large pits ditch the figure eight. They will twist your rope and well I never let them touch my ropes.
Get a rack with a hyper bar. I have used one for many years and they have replaceable bars. They also work much better for changeovers.
My advice is that you don't need to get a croll and chest harness right away. Your 2 ascenders will do the job for now. Buy a good rappel rack. cave safely.

[Stridergdm]

I got into caving this summer, and for the first time climbing using ropes and harness. I have been reading some of the posts here regarding equipment.
My question is whether it is really necessary to buy a chest harness to use with my climbing harness. Couldn't I just rig a figure eight of webbing and then use a d-ring to clip onto the rope to keep me upright?
Also, is a croll really necessary?
If I have ascenders and footloops as well as a prusik for ascending and a figure eight for descending, will that work just as well? I am on a limited budget, and can't afford to buy a lot of equipment, but of course I also want to be safe and responsible. Much of the terminology is still greek to me but I am slowly building my vocabulary and my understanding. I am planning to get some hands on training for single rope technique from a local couple with many years experience who have offered their time and expertise before going out again. They use the frog system i think.

It's hard to say without a more detailed explanation of your system. Yes, if you're using a frog system, you need some sort of chest harness to hold your croll upright. A figure-8 of webbing with a clip to your croll can work.

If you're using something other than a frog, "it depends".

Pretty much as long as you have gripping attachments above your waist, you're good.

I think absolutely the best thing you can do is get the experience with the people you mention. There's a lot of different types of systems out there and the key is knowing what is safe and what works for you.

[ian mckenzie]

Yes, they are necessary.

Hm, I think the key word in the original question was "buy". If you are using a Frog system, then you will need something to tug the croll up the rope for you, but it certainly need not be a commercial chest harness. I've never bought one, mine have always been homemade. The most basic type is a simple unadjustable loop of webbing that is permanently tied thru the eye of the croll. It is tight enough to be extremely uncomfortable when off rope, it is just long enough to force over your head with your helmet off while the croll is attached to your harness. If you're underdressed and the loop is too loose, you can put one arm thru it elbow-first and turn it into a sash. An unadjustable chest loop is really awful though, and it is not much more complicated to home-make an adjustable one from a longer piece of tape in the figure eight pattern that you described with a buckle or other tensionable device and a little maillon or quick-link fromthe hardware store to attach the loop to your croll. The important thing to remember is that the chest 'harness' must pull the top of the croll from your shoulders.

The chest harness is not a life-safety element of the frog system, all it does is tow the croll up the rope so it need not be super strong. You can even use just a length of rubber innertube (but this does not work at all if you are also hauling a load off your harness). However, the use of a second ascender (not just a d-ring thru the rope) is essential both to efficient mobility and your life safety - you need to think in terms of redundancy; that is, no fewer than two strong, dependable, supporting attachments to the rope at all times during ascent. A prussik loop is a good safety to keep in your pocket, but modern cavers don't use it as part of their regular ascending system - it will work though.

I feel that the croll is the best chest tool available for the frog system, but certainly there are others available out there that work on the same design principle.

There are other valid ascending systems other than the frog, and some do not require any chest harness at all, but the frog is the most popular system in the world, for a reason. You could build a Texan system using two prussik loops and your existing climbing harness for just a few dollars, but it is a slow and awkward way to ascend. But it works.

A figure eight descender will work well, and is cheap to buy, but again most serious cavers use either a rack or a bobbin (another debate that you don't want to get into just yet). If you find that you love caving and your granny leaves you a fortune, you will want to upgrade someday to one of these devices. And a good caving harness too; many climbing harnesses don't work very well with a frog setup.

[ek]

At NCRC last summer in Mentone, another caver, Chad Dubuisson, showed me a "chest harness" for a Croll, consisting merely of a piece of elastic cord running up from the Croll, over one shoulder, and down to the back of the sit harness. This doesn't keep you upright, and I'm sure it would be undesirable for hauling a heavy pack, but it will hold the Croll in position. You will have to use your arms more to pull yourself forward while ascending, so it's more athletic and unsuited to long drops, but it works. I've thought of using one myself, but I've never had any serious problems with my Petzl Torse.

For $4.25, you can get a CMI 1" Pro-Loc Buckle. You can fix webbing to one side by sewing (or by tying a knot, but the knot will dig into your chest and be quite uncomfortable). Depending on the length of the webbing you attach to it, you can use various configurations. The simplest configuration[1], which also has the benefit of not constricting your breathing and being most rapidly donned and removed, is V-style. With the buckle in front, at your shoulder, run the webbing down under the back of your harness and up your other shoulder. Then run it through the slot on the top of your chest ascender, and back up to the buckle. Thread it through the buckle and pull down on the tail to tighten. You'll want to tighten it after getting on the rope, as you'll be unlikely to get it tight enough when standing. Cut the webbing so there's just enough that you can put it on easily and walk around with it loosened (so that it's comfortable when you're not on rope, and you don't have to rethread it each time you get on a rope). When you tighten it down, the buckle will move down, so you'll want to slide it back up by pulling up on the front, on the side of the buckle, and down on the front on the side opposite the buckle. Still, the tail of the webbing will probably go down far enough to get caught in your Croll, so make sure to slip it under something.

When it comes to harnesses, sit harnesses that are good for rock and ice climbing are inherently bad for frogging, and vice versa. This is because, to be good for frogging, a sit harness has to have a very low attachment to maximize the distance between the chest ascender and the upper ascender, when the upper ascender is all the way up (i.e. when the long cowstail, or whatever you use as the lanyard for the upper ascender, is fully extended).[2] This distance is, generally, the length of each step when you are frogging. But if you take a significant fall in a sit harness with a low attachment point (and no chest harness), you will flip over backwards (as the attachment point is below your center of mass), so harnesses that are good for frogging are not good for the sport of climbing, and climbing harnesses are not good for frogging. You can do it, but it's quite inefficient.

The other problem with climbing harnesses is that they are not generally designed to conform to the rule for caving harnesses, that you can cut it straight through anywhere, and it will not drop you off the rope. In a traditional caving harness, if you cut the waist strap you have both leg loops, if you cut either leg loop you have the waist strap and the other leg loop, if you cut the stitched joint between a leg loop and the waist strap then you have the other leg loop, and if you cut the attachment point on one side, you lave the leg loop on the other side. This is only possible because there are two attachment points, one on either side, connected by a maillon in the middle. Leg loops for climbing harnesses are generally not even load-bearing, and in many climbing harnesses they're not even adjustable.

1. Actually, a neck loop would be the simplest configuration. It's what it sounds like, going up around your neck. But it's also quite terrible. Many chest harnesses are uncomfortable, but the neck loop has the added bonus that you're in pain after you're done using it. (And it's bad...even dangerous...if you're hauling a significant load.)

2. The long cowstail to the upper ascender is in turn adjusted so you can reach and operate your upper ascender when the long cowstail is fully extended. You need to test this while sitting in the harness. If you can comfortably move your leg up high enough, you can make the footloop short enough that when standing up in it, you move the entire distance between your chest ascender and upper ascender, minus an inch to ensure that they don't slam into one another while you're climbing. Otherwise, the footloop will have to be a bit longer, and when you stand up fully there will be more space between your chest ascender and upper ascender. If this amount of space is very large then a climbing harness might be no worse than a caving harness for frogging...but only because the frog system is inefficient enough for you that you should probably pick some other climbing system instead.

[pilinka]

Wow -thanks very much to everyone for all the suggestions and info. Will take some time to digest, absorb and experiment with some of the various options.

[caverdoc]

If you go to the "cavediggers" web page (Google it) there is an excellent article by Matt Oliphant on setting up the frog.

Easiest chest rig I've ever seen was demonstrated to me up the road from you, in Gold River. Take a 10foot or so piece of 1" tubular webbing. Thread it through two 1" solid metal rings (or a 1inch metal buckle) and tie an overhand knot to "trap" the metal bits. Voila! you have the standard continental style of frog chest strap. Thread the free end through the top of your Croll, up and over a shoulder, down and around the opposite arm, back through the Croll top hole, then around the ribs and over the oppo shoulder to finish up down by the buckle. Thread through the buckle. Attach croll to rope and sit. Tighten up the chest strap to pull yourself into the rope.

Of course, my favorite chest harness for frogging is made by Gonzo Guano Gear in Texas. Check them out at their webpage, try www.gonzoguanogear.com for some awesome caving goodies.

Dr J

[NZcaver]

At NCRC last summer in Mentone, another caver, Chad Dubuisson, showed me a "chest harness" for a Croll, consisting merely of a piece of elastic cord running up from the Croll, over one shoulder, and down to the back of the sit harness. This doesn't keep you upright, and I'm sure it would be undesirable for hauling a heavy pack, but it will hold the Croll in position. You will have to use your arms more to pull yourself forward while ascending, so it's more athletic and unsuited to long drops, but it works.

Yes, the elastic "bungy" cord system works. I used that for a while, except my version just went around the neck only and had a small brass clip that attached directly into the top of the Croll. I also threaded the elastic through a length of 25mm tubular webbing, so it doesn't rub and pinch against the neck quite so much. As you said, it's not so good for climbing with a pack. I can assure you it was quite slow and painful climbing out of one fair sized pit with a multi-day expedition pack slung under me! It also makes it really difficult if you're ever playing with pickoffs. Plus it doesn't offer any back support at all, but the old classic British-style figure 8 webbing loop isn't much better either in my experience. I used one of those for many years, because it's what we all did at the time. Now I know better.

Since I got my GGG H-style chest harness, I've been as happy as a clam.

[Lava]

I would say yes, you definitely need a Croll. But you don't need a chest harness. A figure eight of webbing will work just fine as long as you have an adjustment buckle on it.

[ian mckenzie]

As you said, [the bungee neck loop is] not so good for climbing with a pack. I can assure you it was quite slow and painful climbing out of one fair sized pit with a multi-day expedition pack slung under me!

A solution, though not ideal, is to flip the tethered pack up over one shoulder.

[ek]

How about taking some of the load off the "chest harness" by clipping the back to the rear loop of the sit harness instead of to the maillon, so that it doesn't directly weight the Croll?