Does the US have/need a certified bolting program?

[LifeOnALine]

By certification what I meant....

I see your point - I guess my head sees the term different. Plopping a decal on the resin to say "installed by B.Spears 2007" is common in parts of the UK purely for that reason - but the question that arises when someone mentions the idea is that if you're labelling it, do you need to attach a disclaimer and EULA in case it looks like you're certifying it? The idea would work if the process was well-known and the info was published elsewhere, so your decal just hinted that it may be of better quality, but putting your name on a bolt is one of those things that lawyers sweat about, and I imagine whoever's doing it will want to be protected against action (which may cost more than 50 cents).

What I'm thinking is a database of tests and bolt locations (in a book or a website) where all the legal stuff can be pasted to the door, and on the bolt you just have a "BoltzByBritney.com: 2007" decal. It's similar to the UK system where the CNCC provides details of all the bolts they've installed via their series of little guidebooks, but makes sure when you get the info it's covered by lots of disclaimers.

~DM~

(you do know she shaved her head after a carbide fire, dontcha?)

[fuzzy-hair-man]

What I'm thinking is a database of tests and bolt locations (in a book or a website) where all the legal stuff can be pasted to the door, and on the bolt you just have a "BoltzByBritney.com: 2007" decal. It's similar to the UK system where the CNCC provides details of all the bolts they've installed via their series of little guidebooks, but makes sure when you get the info it's covered by lots of disclaimers.

I might be wrong(I'm on the other side of the world after all) but I thought the P hangers were made specificly for the bolting program by DMM, so if you saw a P hanger then you knew it was installed under the bolting program (I don't really care who installed it just that it won't pull out).
I had also thought that P hangers weren't available to the general public.

The guide books and publishing of bolt locations I agree with. this is pretty much what the Tasmanians have done. I think they have rigging guides but I am not sure they have been published, however updates on the bolting program have been published in the ASF publication and STC's Speleo Spiel perhaps with the view that a similar thing be done on the mainland .

[bigalpha]

I don't know anything about vertical stuff --

But I think it'd be a good idea to have a "caving official/group" go and test bolts and what-not and make sure they are A-OK.
I also agree with publishing those results so people know that the bolts they are using have been tested and won't fail under their weight.

Just my ignorant .02

[LifeOnALine]

...I thought the P hangers were made specificly for the bolting program by DMM

Yes and no - the Eco Anchor was a DMM standard product when the program started, but pretty much straight away DMM dropped it from their catalog (there was a CE-marking issue), agreeing to carry on making it for the then-CNCC program for a while. There are some concerns over the Eco being strictly legal to sell openly, so the BCA/NCA supplies installers with hangers and resin packs. As DMM aren't too interested in continuing production, the scheme is starting to use alternates (such as the Fixe 014).

Just to show how fiddly it can get, the people trained to install as part of the UK scheme are covered by an insurance policy, arranged by the BCA. Early last year someone noticed that the insurance policy's definition of a 'hanger' was too specific, and the DMM Eco-hanger wasn't even covered!

If you want all the specs on the BCA scheme (the tests, the research and the way they're trying to meet the law) then take a look at this link

~DM~

[chh]

I know in the climbing community, particularly in the Muir Valley in the Red River Gorge, KY, the group that owns the land has gone through and tested ALL the bolts on sport routes in the area. I believe they did this with some sort of come-along/dynameter rig. It might behoove some of the cave preservation organizations in the US to take a hint from this and devise a way to test bolts in their properties.

Testing/certifying bolts(and bolters) would be really tricky in US caving... Bolting equipment is readily available, and a lot of the time it's simply not practical to get people to get certified. There's no incentive... people without the certification are going to be bolting too, why should caver XYZ spend the money/time to get the certification when caver ABC is setting bolts without having the certification.

Personally, I think it should be part of our ethic as responsible cavers to learn to set bolts properly if you need to bolt something, and if you don't know how to bolt properly, either find a course or learn from someone who has pretty extensive bolting experience.

Hey Andy! Rick at Muir Valley is an outstanding example of what we all want a landowner to be, but we all know that this is not the case. You just don't find landowners who are climber/caver friendly, safety conscious, well organized, and encourage development. Also, for anyone in the Central KY area, Rick is giving a FREE route development clinic on April 14 at Muir Valley. While the class will also include issues like trail maintenance, erosion, and other issues specific to climbing you will also get a chance to learn how to set bolts (at least in Corbin Sandstone) and be provided with the tools to practice setting them. Learning how to set bolts properly is the most important thing.

Also, Rick has done some destruction testing of the bolts and hangers used in Muir which is what that hydrolic rig was for on the practice boulder, but as far as I know the rest of the bolts in the valley were just visually inspected and torque wrenched, changes were made accordingly.

Now, I personally don't always trust bolts and prefer natural protection when it is available. But I use bolts. We all do, and more often than not must trust them blindly. So far, in the areas I've visited, self policing by the users has done fairly well, but you get both extremes. I've had my choice of good bolts in a bolt garden at a pitch head and also lead way outside my comfort level above a 20 year old quarter inch star driver.
I think a program COULD succeed, but realize that it is unlikely, and success will be brought about directly by people like Rick Weber and those with deeper pockets and convictions than most of the dirtbag cavers/climbers I know. That said, Muir Valley is growing so fast. People go there (and hence are more apt to donate to a cause I hope) if they know such people are in charge. Because of the complexity of development, I just don't think a program would be successful in our current social/legal environment.

[fuzzy-hair-man]

As DMM aren't too interested in continuing production, the scheme is starting to use alternates (such as the Fixe 014).

Damn! that's a real shame, I saw the fact (or close to) that these bolts weren't available to the public as one of the strengths of the scheme, the fact that these bolts would be instantly recognisable. DMM aren't able to do batch runs every so often I guess? I guess this was how they did it in the first place though. too bad huh?

On the other hand I guess most bolts placed by other people will be self drilling expansion type bolts so any epoxy? type bolts are still recognisable?

Thanks for the info

[LifeOnALine]

The Eco fell into a gray area as it could've been an item of climbing equipment (so needing CE type testing) or a bent hunk of 316S11 (so needing fck all). When the scheme started it was a stock item, but when it was lifted from their catalog they told the BCA that the minimum order qty was going to be in the thousands, and even in the huge grottos of the UK nobody can find places to poke that many holes! It's not DMM's fault as the way the Welsh manufacturers work is.. strange. I buy from them regularly and still don't know who owns who! Most of the DMM metal comes from ISC, DMM now own the patterns to HB climbing's metal but don't admit to it in their catalogs... ISC sell the same items to more than one client and direct with their own label... pretty much anything goes as long as there's a sheep involved.

In terms of the spread of other bolts in the UK, there are still a lot of expansion sleeves (8mm SPIT or 8mm Hilti) but wherever a site gets regular visits these get replaced with something else. The most common solution from clubs is a resined 10mm stud with a Petzl Coeur dropped on, or a home-made hanger (slab of steel angle with a few holes). Very few people fit P-hangers unless they're part of the 'scheme', as they're expensive - about $7 each - but an M10 stud is a few cents from a hardware store. It was one of the reasons for the scheme going for a P-hanger instead of more studding - they wanted to stop people having to bring bags of assorted plates and nuts with them to replace ones 'retrieved' by the previous users!

One of the drawbacks of the Eco is that once it's fitted you have a heck of a job recognising it - almost all the P-hangers have the same external half, and the differences are in the stem. Resin color doesn't help either, as the scheme changes supplies every so often (they used to use resin from Exchem, now it's from Hilti). Sometimes installers will take some letter punches with them and press an ID into the soft resin, but the only way to be sure it's a 'scheme bolt' is to check the rigging guide for that site. There's no date of manufacture visible, so the longer the scheme runs the more trouble we're having when a bolt isn't in the book.

~DM~

[hunter]

Hmm, this is a difficult question I'm not certain I have the patience to think about right now... I will say however that having spent a non-trivial amount of money replacing bad climbing anchors/bolts some sort of bolt standard would be nice. Contemplating a certification program is tough but maybe the NSS could put together recommended guide lines (although I guess liability is still an issue).

I tried opening the link on data and it didn't work for me. Can you guys with experience in the program summarize when/how the chemical anchors have been failing when you test them in situ? I like and use the fixe glue-ins and would like to have more info on long term longevity and performance in real rock.

Thanks,
James

[ljthawk]

If interested, Jeff Butt’s old articles documenting the installation and testing of the P hangers in Australia are on my old web site ( http://www.imdl.gatech.edu/ljthawk/fixed_anchors/ ). Scroll down a few sections.

From all the discussions I have had in the climbing and caving community, there really isn’t an interest in a “national certified bolting program”. Between the liability and the logistics of enforcing, I doubt it would be accepted or practical; at least not until (if) we start seeing bolt failures and resulting accidents.

L.J.