TAG Photojournal 2

Techniques and equipment.

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Re: TAG Photojournal 2

Postby Scott Shaw » Dec 22, 2011 9:54 pm

Amy....Wondering if all of this (your symptoms) might be a sign of anxiety induced by caving or tight spaces?
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Re: TAG Photojournal 2

Postby Cody JW » Dec 22, 2011 10:31 pm

Great photos Amy. I like Amy and chat with her some on FB but I have to say I kind of agree with Jeff B here. I feel if someone has any known physical issues that may render them unable to exit a cave under their own power that they putting the safety of themselves and the local rescue community at risk. I know Amy LOVES caving but if she is putting her own safety and maybe the safety of others at risk then she should think about what is best for her and others. To give an example , I had knee surgery last summer and I know that when I tell my doctor ( a non caver) that I cave and is it Ok to continue and he says yes I have to consider non cavers have no idea what real caving is all about. I was not sure if I could ever cave again and I accepted that. What I did was went to short easy caves first , same with pits. My first pit after the surgery was a local 30 foot pit .I knew I had to kind of start all over again to understand my abilities. My first TAG trip since surgery was over Thanksgiving and I limited myself to pits around 100 feet. I have been involved in helping on a few rescues and know what it takes to get someone out of a cave , even an "easy" cave. The last thing I want to do is put a rescue crew at risk because I did not understand my abilities. Turns out I do not think my surgery affected my ability to cave and climb ect. But I was not going to assume that and put myself and others at risk so I took it EASY finding that out. Before I stepped foot in a cave I went on some hikes with my dogs and some bicycle rides , my knee was a little sore but it did not effect my ability to ride 50 miles on a bicycle. After that I eased my way into a short cave. If I were Amy I would stay out of popular caves like TR and really consider if vertical caving was in my best interest. I hope Amy can find some kind of resolution to any problems she may have. I have had a disagreement with Jeff B before but I respect his opinion and his caving experience , I also think he is involved in the local rescue community so he has skin in this game. I hope all works out.
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Re: TAG Photojournal 2

Postby Squirrel Girl » Dec 23, 2011 12:12 am

I am a sufferer of migraine headaches and I am former carbide caver. At the time I was caving carbide, I didn't have the headaches that I have now.

Scents can be triggers for migraines, though for me, they seem to exacerbate incipient headaches, rather than trigger them on their own. That could be different for different people.

As others have said, you can't turn off carbide once you've fired it up. It just doesn't work that way.

I also think it's unrealistic to expect someone not to go caving the way they intended. Carbide has many advantages. Pre LED, carbide was the only way to get a nice spread of light w/o a spot beam. It keeps you warm, has a cheery glow, has worked for decades, why change? I could go on and on. You might not agree, but it's a plausible choice.

Even if you could turn a carbide lamp off (such that it didn't emit odors), I just can't see, if I went caving, that some other caver that happened to be visiting the same case as I, would tell me that I can't use my preferred lamp. How do they know if my backup is suitable as a primary? Maybe I could get out in a pinch, but that doesn't mean it's the way I want to start a cave. And even still, that's too much to ask another caver that's not on your trip, IMHO.

Yes, it's good if people are courteous. From the way the story went, they weren't as courteous as they might have been. Some stories have two sides, and maybe they had a different perspective. But giving the Cavechat crew the benefit of the doubt, the carbide caver shouldn't have poked his head in the alcove.

That doesn't really address the big situation. Things are going to happen that will trigger migraines. (Believe me, I know and it SUCKS!). My answer is DRUGS! It's the only thing that's reliable, and the unreliable things are almost completely worthless. Imitrex works great, but it was too expensive considering how often I get migraines (even in addition to taking a daily preventative). So I switched to Relpax. It was a lot cheaper and seems to work as well for me.

I do everything I can to avoid triggers. It's a pain in the BUTT to tell people all the time, "No I can't eat that," because I'll get a migraine. Sometimes I mess up (or someone slips me a nut w/o me knowing), and I get a headache. What it amounts to is that I don't leave home without a pill tucked away.

I'll skip all my diving/migraine horror stories. It's a challenge to deal with. Some trips I have no headaches, other trips it's every other dive I get sick on (could be due to CO2 retention? or maybe pressure changes?).

Anyway. Nice pictures, Amy.
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Re: TAG Photojournal 2

Postby self-deleted_user » Dec 23, 2011 12:38 am

Cavechat (or I guess...Internet, haha): where everyone is suddenly an expert on someone else's body makes lots of assumptions then draws conclusions from the assumptions *rollseyes*

Thanks for understanding, Squirrel. Yeah people who don't have migraines probably find it hard to understand that we get them, we have to deal with them, we know our triggers best we can and we have methods to use to fix them, and we refuse to let them control our lives. =)

I DO have ways to deal with migraines even underground. And such methods are exactly what I did do to deal with the situation in TR last week. The new thing was the not being able to friggin' breathe. Honestly the first time in my life that has happened - Iv'e never had my airway constrict on me. Can't exactly put that on me to know what to do - it was new and totally unrelated to the migraine. I knew it was the fumes though, so again, I used my knoweldge of SCIENCE! to do the wet bandana trick, which helped! it would have been nice if the caver with the carbide had a) let us stay ahead or b) actually stayed up ahead instead of poking back into our freshair pockets we found, at the very least. A bit of cooperation is always nice though, yes?

I appreciate concern, but please trust me to know my own body. I live with it 24/7, I kinda know it pretty well ;) =)
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Re: TAG Photojournal 2

Postby paul » Dec 23, 2011 7:34 am

LukeM wrote:
Marduke wrote:Using it in such a cave where you KNOW dozens of other people will be, knowing that a LOT of people are effected negatively by the byproducts, is inconsiderate AT BEST.


I'm not going to get involved in the debate about what is right here, but I was not aware that this was a common problem. What did people do before LEDs were invented, or in Europe where carbide is still very popular? Just suffer through it? Not become cavers?


FWIW, carbide has largely gone the way of the dinosaurs in Europe. After all there are Scurions, Rude Noras, Custom Duo modules for Petzl Duos, etc. etc.
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Re: TAG Photojournal 2

Postby LukeM » Dec 23, 2011 7:50 am

paul wrote:
LukeM wrote:
Marduke wrote:Using it in such a cave where you KNOW dozens of other people will be, knowing that a LOT of people are effected negatively by the byproducts, is inconsiderate AT BEST.


I'm not going to get involved in the debate about what is right here, but I was not aware that this was a common problem. What did people do before LEDs were invented, or in Europe where carbide is still very popular? Just suffer through it? Not become cavers?


FWIW, carbide has largely gone the way of the dinosaurs in Europe. After all there are Scurions, Rude Noras, Custom Duo modules for Petzl Duos, etc. etc.


Ah, thanks for pointing that out.
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Re: TAG Photojournal 2

Postby trogman » Dec 23, 2011 10:09 am

I went through a time where I used a carbide light myself, but eventually gave it up due to the mess and inconvenience. I still have a friend who uses one for marking survey stations, which brings me to another point: Carbide is not clean-burning! This is why it is used for marking survey stations, because of the sooty black residue it puts out. I tried to use other types of flames to mark survey stations, such as butane, but none of them had that same quality. I also remember a recent post from a Euro caver; one of the links he posted had pictures of beautiful formation areas when they were first discovered, and then photos of the same areas after years of carbide cavers going in the cave. The difference was obvious; the formations has a sooty layer that dulled their beauty.This is something I'd never given much thought to. If that little flame is putting out enough soot that you can write a survey station number with it, then all that soot must be going somewhere. In a well-ventilated cave, it might not be an issue, but in one with less air flow I can see where it would build up. I'm not suggesting we should ban carbide lights, but I sure am glad we have electric lights now!
FWIW, I actually like the smell of carbide. Everytime I smell it at work or somewhere, it makes me think of caving! :grin:


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Re: TAG Photojournal 2

Postby Cody JW » Dec 23, 2011 12:37 pm

I used to use it ( carbide) back in the early 80s before electric lights were all contained on your head. Most of the electrics back then had a cord going to a waist battery pack. I would use my electric in caves that were not so confined but for the confined caves I preferred carbide.I had an old Auto Lite. Still have a couple of them on the shelf at home. I am trying to figure out where people can locally buy the carbide rocks anymore. I used to buy mine at an old cave shop in Bloomington , In. or from Bob and Bob at conventions. With all the great compact LEDs out there now I do not know why anybody would use carbide anymore. I used to hear people say that when surveying the electric lights could mess up readings on a compass and the compass guy back then would use carbide. Not sure if that is true or if todays LED lights may be different in that respect. Carbide did produce a glow that you could not really get with electric lights back then.
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Re: TAG Photojournal 2

Postby UnderGroundEarth » Dec 23, 2011 1:34 pm

Sungura wrote:Cavechat (or I guess...Internet, haha): where everyone is suddenly an expert on someone else's body makes lots of assumptions then draws conclusions from the assumptions *rollseyes*


Amy, If you don't want the opinions of others then perhaps you should stop posting your so called instances all over caving websites and just save them for the NSS Caving Accidents report that is published every few years.
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Re: TAG Photojournal 2

Postby innermostphoto » Dec 25, 2011 11:49 am

.com
Last edited by innermostphoto on Jan 7, 2012 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TAG Photojournal 2

Postby NZcaver » Dec 25, 2011 4:42 pm

innermostphoto wrote:Good God! Every time (rarely) I get on Cave Chat the topic turns into bashing someone wayyyyyy off topic. I can't stand this forum and most of the people in it because they only read what they wish, single out sections they want to pick on others, all the while attention whores must post their topics to gain comments personal satisfaction! I hate you, and you, and you, and you! I have better things to do (like go caving) than to read topics written by people who have such pitiful lives that they must remain on the computer biting their nails waiting on the next conflicting post! It is very disappointing.

Thanks for contributing to the topic! Oh wait, you didn't... :sarcasm: If you have better things to do, why did you even bother posting to say you can't stand the forum? Hypocrisy abounds! :roll:

(Oh dear, I suppose this means I'm bashing you for bashing people who are bashing other people? Such a vicious cycle.) :laughing:
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Re: TAG Photojournal 2

Postby mgmills » Dec 25, 2011 5:11 pm

NZcaver wrote:
innermostphoto wrote:Good God! Every time (rarely) I get on Cave Chat the topic turns into bashing someone wayyyyyy off topic. I can't stand this forum and most of the people in it because they only read what they wish, single out sections they want to pick on others, all the while attention whores must post their topics to gain comments personal satisfaction! I hate you, and you, and you, and you! I have better things to do (like go caving) than to read topics written by people who have such pitiful lives that they must remain on the computer biting their nails waiting on the next conflicting post! It is very disappointing.

Thanks for contributing to the topic! Oh wait, you didn't... :sarcasm: If you have better things to do, why did you even bother posting to say you can't stand the forum? Hypocrisy abounds! :roll:

(Oh dear, I suppose this means I'm bashing you for bashing people who are bashing other people? Such a vicious cycle.) :laughing:

:exactly: I do agree that this thread got quite :off topic:
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Re: TAG Photojournal 2

Postby Cody JW » Dec 25, 2011 7:38 pm

Gotta Love these "off topic folks" . Who cares ?? I suppose any face to face conversations these forum police have been engaged in never changed topics?? When I and most people have conversations the "topics" can go from spectator sports to beer to caving to politics to the opposite sex ect. Where is the crime?? I do not know, I just sort of file it under human nature.
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Re: TAG Photojournal 2

Postby Cody JW » Dec 25, 2011 8:35 pm

innermostphoto wrote:Good God! Every time (rarely) I get on Cave Chat the topic turns into bashing someone wayyyyyy off topic. I can't stand this forum and most of the people in it because they only read what they wish, single out sections they want to pick on others, all the while attention whores must post their topics to gain comments personal satisfaction! I hate you, and you, and you, and you! I have better things to do (like go caving) than to read topics written by people who have such pitiful lives that they must remain on the computer biting their nails waiting on the next conflicting post! It is very disappointing.

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Re: TAG Photojournal 2

Postby mgmills » Dec 25, 2011 10:28 pm

Cody JW wrote:Gotta Love these "off topic folks" . Who cares ?? I suppose any face to face conversations these forum police have been engaged in never changed topics?? When I and most people have conversations the "topics" can go from spectator sports to beer to caving to politics to the opposite sex ect. Where is the crime?? I do not know, I just sort of file it under human nature.



Cody, as a moderator one of our jobs is to try to keep things from straying too far off topic. We actually don't police that much here. It just helps if people start an new thread if the topic really starts to spin out too far. When someone is reading a photography thread they don't expect to get into the middle of a discussion about "problems with carbide cavers". (Additional note to clarify - In face to face conversations it is different. If the person you are speaking to wants to redirect the topic back to the original topic they can. )

In this thread the moderators have been pretty tolerant of discussions straying from the original topic. NZ just commented on the latest comment that had nothing to do with the original thread and I just agreed with him. :shrug:

Just my two cents as a moderator. Now back to the "cat fighting" :boxing:
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