Tough for newbies in the photo salons

[Wayne Harrison]

These posts moved at the poster's requests to this section for discussion:

We had a slump of entrants in the past 5 years, with an uptick ONLY after we chose to accept digital images.

Cady Soukup

After attending Salons since 1992, and seeing the same names over and over again as winners, I wonder if photography shouldn't follow the suit of cartography and define levels of competition, or after X number of wins, a photographer be declared a Grand Master or something, and be able to participate for show, but not for awards.

I know it has been quite discouraging for several people I know who are professionally published and paid photographers in the real world but never get anything accepted for the NSS Salon, and they have simply given up submitting. One of my grottos has awards, and after you win in a certain category multiple times (say you are a decent writer, and win the best article award two or three times) you generally disqualify yourself from further awards. After all, everybody *knows* you are good by then.

Just a thought.

We had a slump of entrants in the past 5 years, with an uptick ONLY after we chose to accept digital images.

Cady Soukup

After attending Salons since 1992, and seeing the same names over and over again as winners, I wonder if photography shouldn't follow the suit of cartography and define levels of competition, or after X number of wins, a photographer be declared a Grand Master or something, and be able to participate for show, but not for awards.

I know it has been quite discouraging for several people I know who are professionally published and paid photographers in the real world but never get anything accepted for the NSS Salon, and they have simply given up submitting. One of my grottos has awards, and after you win in a certain category multiple times (say you are a decent writer, and win the best article award two or three times) you generally disqualify yourself from further awards. After all, everybody *knows* you are good by then.

Just a thought.

Well now that the thread is taking some new directions,I guess I'll chime in again as I may be one of the few "over and over" names that has probably been following the thread (although there are many participants who don't give their real name in their profile, so I can't be certain of that).

I do see some some logic in what you are suggesting but not sure it would address the problems you think it would. No matter how stiff the competition is, I think all good work probably gets at least accepted. Just because someone is a professional photographer doesn't mean they will necessarily do well underground. They might have great composition and concepts but poor lighting, which we all know is the crux of good cave photography. You control everything (except maybe for photo assistants that want to get on with some more mudane pursuit such as survey!) to get the outcome you want. In my experience with various media photographers I've been with underground, they are counting on a big whomping flash to go off near the camera and light the room up. Most aren't even likely to have a second flash, much less 3 or 4 smaller, battery-powed strobes and slaves for the rest of what they shoot.

BTW, if anyone feels they have had good work passed over by the salon judges, you're welcome to submit a couple dozen of your best for consideration in the sporadic Photographer Spotlight series. That also goes for folks that have just not gotten around to entering. Over the years I have seen tons of good work that never goes through our Salons but which photographers are usually happy to submit for the News following a request. I figure that's always what we want shown in the News, is all the best stuff out there.

As to awards, I think the various categories in the Cart Salon still have ribbons, and then one overall medal is given across categories. But it does serve the purpose of putting judges in a different mindset and not having to be compared to other's stuff that likely contains a fairly high proportion of potential ribbon winners. So I could easily see having a system like the cart salon with say 3 separate groups be judged as batches for ribbons (but not for acceptance). This could result in more spirited competition. Of course then you are imparting a new sense of competition among the top players, which keeps them on their toes.
I would probably first decide on accept/not accept for the Salon blind to category, so at least we decide whether something is worth showing to 800 people, and we keep a high standard. But by then awarding the ribbons in categories you could give the new players a better chance perhaps.
I think we actually have been seeing several new people entering and doing well the last few years, I won't name names for fear of leaving someone out. But I think Cady's point is lots of people were doing digital and the salon had to change to include them. So that's a step in the right direction of bringing in more new blood.

And I personally think the medal winner should still come from the overall crop. Often the selection seems to have surprised the audience (it rarely seems to be the image that got the most applause, for instance) and is often not a well-known photographer but a new entrant that may have had little else awarded.

Regardless of what changes we make, the NSS News committee likes getting a nice crop of good photos to run in the Salon Galleries and on covers each year, so wouldn't want to see any changes implemented that result in even fewer ribbons, or less good stuff to show on Salon night.

Enough said for one post, but see what you think of my take on your plan. Now maybe we should move this thread to the photo forum....

[NZcaver]

(Also from that other thread...)

A few quick notes here -

The switch to digital images for the salon in 2005 put an enormous load onto everyone who volunteered for the slide salon this year due to unforeseen and endless logistical details. We hope to do better in 2006.

(snip)

CHANGES TO ENTRIES & FEE STRUCTURE FOR 2006: Due to last year's logistical problems, we are limiting the number of entries for the slide salon this year to 50 slides or images per photographer (i.e. enter your BEST please).

(snip)

Cady Soukup
Co-Chair NSS Slide Salon

FIFTY images per photographer per year?

I attended the slide show in Alabama last year, and came away a little disappointed about the whole too-many-photos-by-all-the-same-people syndrome. After speaking with others, I found I was not the only one who feels this way. The usual "big names" did provide some fantastic shots, but so did many of the newbies.

Setting the current limit is a good start, but I still think 50 is a bit high. I respectfully suggest the organizers consider HALVING the maximum number of entries per photographer. Any photographer should be able to cut his or her "best" caving shots down to 20-25 PER YEAR, without feeling unjustly pressured. Even with the rules the way they are, perhaps some of you photographers might consider voluntarily adopting a limit of 25 shots? The net result would undoubtedly be a few less photos to view/judge, and perhaps a slide show that doesn't feel like it goes on for hours. The salon would still have the same high quality material, while attracting more diversity by having proportionally more photographers.

And by the way, thanks to the organizers and volunteers - your efforts are appreciated.

[rcoomer]

I have to agree. . . 50 seems crazy to me too when I read it. I think I fell asleep at the last slide salon. . .well I would have if people around me weren't snoring. I would say 10 best entries (an entry could be a set of images) per photographer unless they don't have enough photos. If that is a fear, request 10 entries and 10 alternates.

20 photographers would then be 200 - 400 images. . .How many do you need for an effective show? Does the judges really need to see 1000 images? After a while you get pretty numb and they all start looking alike.

I don't think this would effect the winning image, since most photographers already have a good idea how their images will show and what their strengths are. If they don't they will learn.

That would allow for more photographers in the salon or at least an equal showing. One or a select few photographers won't overwhelm the show and will allow amateurs to have a stronger presence. You could argue that would weaken the showing, but if the goal is the strongest showing, then it would be by invitation only.

Separate awards for an amateur and an advanced category may help build courage, or an award for the best new comer could help bring new names into the awards ceremonies and invite competition. The medal winner would still be the overall best image. (maybe )

As long as you follow the rules, and you submit a great image, it should be accepted. Many first timers don't follow the salon rules and when they get rejected, they take it personally rather than looking at what they did wrong and how to correct it.

It's an art competition, not a popularity contest.

Honestly, I think the slide salon has been a little weak. I don't know that a winner there has ever WOWed me, yet I feel I always see incredible images in the print salon. maybe they are overworking the judges and actually hurting the competition with too many images?

[Realms]

Last convention was the first time I ever entered something. I had the mind set that I was going up against the best of the best. I however did not feel discouraged in anyway. Honestly I would not have submitted anything if it hadn't been for a few friends talking me into it. I picked my 3 favorite slides and mailed them off just barely making the deadline. In the back of my mind I kept thinking these won't make it but I am trying and that is a start. The night of the salon we set there watching the slides pop up. I figured maybe one of mine might make it and be shown. When the ribbon pics started popping up I was sure my chance had past. Next year I thought. Next year I will try again. About that time one of my pics appeared as an honorable mention. My heart stopped. Then another slide past and then another one of mine popped up. Of the 3 I entered, 2 made it with green ribbons. Guess my point is please don't be discouraged, keep trying. Go for the unusual. I know I'm not the type to be giving advice. I'm very new to this myself. I can imagine many more new folks will appear in the near future. Hang in there.

[Bobatnathrop]

Wow I was just talking about this like 2 weeks ago. I agree that it seems that the well know names get more pictures winning awards than anyone but you got to think that they proably send in their 50 slide limit to. While the newbs like me will be lucky to find 2 slides that they think are worth putting in.
I dont think that there is a fix that will make the new people feel like they have a chance and I am not sure that dividing it into skill levels would help it a whole lot either. If you did that I think that it would not challenge new people to try as hard as they would if they were going up againts the best in the world.Any-hoo I will still be sending in acouple. Arpil 10th is the deadline?

[tropicalbats]

Last convention was the first time I ever entered something. I had the mind set that I was going up against the best of the best. I however did not feel discouraged in anyway. Honestly I would not have submitted anything if it hadn't been for a few friends talking me into it.

Hey, I could have written that and it would be perfectly true. Last Convention was my first submission to Slide Salon, and I also won two ribbons, including third best overall. Given that 14 ribbons were awarded, it seems that at least 4 were by first time newbies.

And to look at the numbers, just over 500 images were submitted, and just under half were shown. So only awarding 14 ribbons makes that pretty stingy, ie, an acceptably high goal to shoot for.

I realize that the pros like Bunnell and the others are far better than folks like me who just tinker with photography. It only makes sense. But to suggest that a newbie can't score high in the competition doesn't hold water.

I'm sorry that so many people fell asleep watching the 15 shots I had shown at Convention. I find that much more discouraging than trying to go up against the top shelf cave photographers in the NSS.

Keith Christenson

[cadyasoukup]

Wow!

Thanks for all the attention & suggestions!

Sorry - this is long - but it may be informative, and it's a true behind-the-scenes perspective.

The way the slide salon works has been worked up over the years so it's moderately efficient for slides, but the digital images have thrown us into a whole New Way of Doing Things. We're still learning.

The first year I did the slide salon (Kentucky 2001), there were over 1000 slides to track, enter data, view, judge, and winnow into the slide salon program. It was a real marathon for everything, from data entry to judging. We aim for approximately 160-220 slides for the program. We're thinking of cutting this down to 120-150 or so (shorter show, for one thing). Data entry alone can take 40-60 hours.

There are 4 categories that may have ribbons awarded (or not!):
A Story Series,
B Scenes from Nature,
C Surreal, and
D Humor.
After each category gets judged separately, they are put together for the final judging.

The Humor category is the only one that Ray & I get to decide - it is more-or-less out of the judging altogether (the humor images rarely get ribbons!). Ray likes to put every humor slide/image in. I tend to be a bit more picky. Good cop / bad cop - an old pattern.

The 4 categories get a SINGLE medal overall. Is this fair? Several other salons award one medal per category. We decide every year, as though it's a new decision again, to award a single medal - our judges help with the decision.

We go through the categories / slides / images in at least 3 passes -

1st pass - a quick run-through to see what this year's crop of entries lookes like (the images have been 'randomized' to the best of Ray's & my ability so one photographer's images are not in a clump, but are placed throughout the sequence). If an image is deemed by the judges to be in the 'wrong category' it is moved to the 'right category' at this time.

2nd pass - a run-through with scoring. This is where the judges score on a 10-point scale for each of 3 attributes: caver appeal, photography technique, artistic merit. Each judge has a print-out of ALL of the images by title, in the order of judging presentation, so they can be sure that they are entering the right score for the right image.

( - - - a long break to re-align ALL of the slides according to the judges' scores - and this exercise is an art in itself that usually requires the participation of the judges and all of the 'helpers' to accomplish! - - -)

3rd pass - determines the break between the 'no-show' and the 'show' images. This is 'fuzzy' - just because an image has a 'passing score' does not mean that it will get shown.

4th - Nth pass - the top 20-30 slides may get another pass or several, to determine green ribbon awards, blue ribbon awards, and the final medal.

The final medal award is a mystery, the process is a convoluted collaboration between the judges (who have been 'warmed up' by that point with up to 12 hours of slide viewing in a dark auditorium!). The medal award is determined amongst the 3 judges by discussion (sometimes it is Very Lively!). Two 'yes' votes can override a single 'no' vote.

Beyond that, Ray Cole takes the winning slides & images, recruits friends & neighbors & family members (he's running short of 'friends' after several years of doing this), and concocts the salon show. He also scans the slides with his own slide scanner, and compiles the top 100 slides & digital images into a CD for the annual 'Best of the Slide Salon' feature. Dave Bunnell (in his capacity as Editor of the NSS News) is one of the people who receives a copy of this CD. The NSS office also receives a copy.

I will talk with Ray about making changes. Chip Clark, as the longest standing judge (and as a professional photographer himself) also has a lot of weight with us in terms of figuring out how to make changes. We may not change for the 2006 salons. Although there's just enough time to make changes, it doesn't seem fair to make big changes without letting all of our photographers know.

I'd love to limit the images-per-entrant more! I'm the one who does the data entry. . .

Thanks everyone -

Cady Soukup
1/2 of the chairman of the Slide Salon

[Teresa]

I don't think you're getting the point of my original post.

The discouragement factor (oh, I won't submit anything, the same people are accepted for show year after year)
is what I originally was talking about.
There are many fine cave photographers (or even people who've gotten lucky with a shot) who don't even get to the gate, because they have selected themselves out of the running. After all, why hassle with the expense and postage just to win rejection?
Since photo judging is a subjective thing (no, don't anyone scream, this is art we're talking about), there isn't even a reasonable way to 'sell to the market' in the case of the slide and other photographic salons.

I also was talking about the fact that folks who win year after year are such stiff competition for your average caver (many of whom don't have the photo gear, travel opportunities to unique caves or a following of sherpas to help with lighting) that the average good cave photographer submits for a couple of years, then gives up entirely.
I know a number of individuals thus discouraged. I also know in writing there are any number of competitions for 'first book', younger poets, unpublished writers, etc., where upcoming talent is encouraged, and then moves on to play with the big boys and girls as they are able. You don't have an unpublished undergrad going against John Updike or the works of Shakespeare.

One only needs to go to several conventions to find out there are two tiers of cavers in the NSS. While most first tier cavers are quite gracious, it's pretty obvious. Such is the case with cave photographers as well. I think this discrepancy was solved very well with the way the cartographic salon is run, and was suggesting the same thing.

Limiting people to 10 images would be also be a good thing. Then perhaps we wouldn't see 4 or 5 identical images with different lighting and the Slide Salon would shrink to a length to make it less onerous to attend. I remember the "Lechuguilla year"-- fully 1/4 of all pics that year were of that one cave.

I know it sounds like I'm crabbing...but much bandwidth has been wasted on this board and elsewhere how to get more involvement in the NSS on a national level. Convention competitions are a good place to start to encourage participation.

[rcoomer]

I don't mean this to be egotistical. (Must be my inner "artiste" talking)

This is an art competition, no less so than the fine art salon. Talent is talent, no matter what they are shooting with. Some photographers will never reach an awards level, and others will no matter what equipment they have.

To be accepted for show is an award.

My first green ribbon image was shot with a 2mp point and shoot camera of a bat. No sherpas, no external flashes, no big production, no nothing. Just me, the cave, the bat, and about 30 seconds to take his photo.

The only thing holding most photographers back is their own self confidence or lack of drive to compete. I've seen some incredible work that blows my stuff away, but they don't care whether they compete or not, so they usually don't enter, or do so half heartedly and don't get any results.

This is where an active photo section could truly help. See earlier posts on this board about that. It could help build the confidence needed without just jumping into competition. The big names don't have a lock on talent, they are just consistently talented and enter.

I know a nature photographer who wins lots of big awards. If you ask him his secret he say it's because he takes the time to enter. Otherwise how could he have won? He figures his chances are just as good as everyone else, since no one knows what exactly the judges will go for. The same image that won one contest could fail miserably the next and the only difference is the judges.

[Dave Bunnell]

I agree with much of what Rob just said in the above post. Good work will generally be shown no matter who else has entered the competition. And if you somehow got the top competitors to sit out a year and your picture won, would it seem like as much of a victory?

Compare it to something like say, Olympic ice skating where countries like Russia have dominated for years. Does anyone ask that the Russians bring fewer skaters to the competition? Would it be a better competition without them? Of course not. And note who ended up winning the women's medal, someone from Japan, a country which had never won a skating medal. We frequently see the same thing in the Photo Salon medal winners.

I agree that 50 entries seems like a lot. When there was no cap at all on entries, I think the most I ever entered was 40, in a year I had been shooting lots of stuff. I've known other photographers who have entered more than twice that many. But I could see 25 or 30 as a cap. 10 would be too low, as you have to remember that when the Convention is held in a venue that is more remote (like this year's in Washington), participation in the Salon drops considerably.

I disagree with Rob, though, that the Print Salon shows a generally higher level of quality (not exactly an unbiased statement on his part, as he only enters the Print Salon). We did have a situation for several years where, for folks shooting digital, that was their main outlet for entering. Very few were outputing their digitals to slide as I did. But now that people can enter digitals, the Slide Salon is still the easiest venue for new people to show their work and be recognized for it. In the Print Salon you have to invest some big bucks to make a very large print, and mount it. Smaller prints, as I've learned from personal experience, are much less likely to get awards.

As a side note, while talking about Salon rules, one can currently enter the same image in both Photo and Print Salons in the same year. I've always refrained from this myself but this last year saw a few folks doing this. While it can be an interesting demonstration of how subjective this business of awards is (e.g. is it just shown in one and gets a medal in the other) I think it takes away the impact of an image in the slide salon if people have already seen it in the print salon earlier. I'd change that, but still allow them to be entered in different years.

[rcoomer]

I think my bias towards the print salon may be that you get to see the images for more than 5 seconds. The slide salon is about immediate visual impact to the viewer where prints can be more subtle. (Though I doubt they are judged that way) I wish there was a way to view the slide salon images outside of Salon. I've been tempted to come to the crit session just to be able to see them again, but it is always the same time as the print session.

I like to look "into" images and study them.

I didn't know that they had added the digital salon last year until it was too late. I may enter this year. I also have been making slides for gallery and art show applications. I may enter both salons, though time is a luxury I don't have much of to develop images for each salon.

BTW. . . the review sessions with the judges is a great way to learn more about the salons. It's a shame that so few people attend them (at least the print salon). That is where you find out why an image won or was ignored. If someone wants to enter, but didn't that year, they should come to the review and listen to what is said.