Cavechat.org

Can anyone here look me in the eye and say that they have never touched a formation? No.

Everyone has along the way, whether it be a smoothed over knob on a climb or a dry rimstone that needs to be crawled over.

That said, it's not good form to touch them. We try to not touch them. We all have at one time or another.

[moderator hat]I think we should find some other things to worry about and move on.[/moderator hat]

GroundquestMSA wrote:

Extremeophile wrote:A photo requiring a disclaimer has probably missed the mark.

Why photograph oneself pretending to or appearing to do something that you should not be doing, that you would never dream of doing, that those who you present the photo to would not approve of, that you intend to vehemently deny doing?

EXACTLY. Groundquest and Extremeophile both say it better than I do, because I'm terrible at being succinct.

Look, I'm not a super-duper-conservationist. I've rigged to formations dozens of times. I've surveyed places that crunched and tinkled every time I took a step. I've accidentally broken soda straws with my helmet in tight stream passage, I've scarred flowstone with my descender on rope in tight spaces and I'm sure I've left blood (on-trail) in Lech. No one is on a high horse here. In fact, I don't think anyone's "panties are in a wad," unless your photos gave some of our crusty old-timers more of a thrill than I've anticipated.

What I AM saying, however, is that your initial response to Andy Armstrong -- or, as you surely know him, Anonymous Coward -- was asinine. When he offered an opinion about the subject matter in one photo, you first denied that you'd touched the formation, then you added a "disclaimer" that dripped with venom. You asked for critique of your photos, then wouldn't stand for the critique. What would have happened if someone had actually criticized the photography and not the content... would you have written an even longer diatribe about how your fellow cavers had hurt and betrayed you and defamed your character?

Oh, and Marduke, that photo is totally different... that girl isn't even wearing a corset!

Sungura,

I don't know if you've found these, but I thought you might find the guidelines for NSS photo and print salon entries useful when considering how to compose, edit, and select your photographs. http://caves.org/committee/salons/Slide ... iteria.htm, http://caves.org/committee/salons/Print ... iteria.htm

FWIW: I don't know how the current salon chairs rule now, but in the not so distant past, the salon chairs generally would not accept photos that included people touching or appearing to touch, "pretty," pristine, and/or delicate formations. (In some salon images you may see people in clean booties standing on or near white floor formations.) The idea is that as an organization we didn't want to appear to be condoning it, regardless of whether there's any evidence of harm being done. In the same way, we're also careful about images that are printed in NSS pubs.

Cheryl

Jeff Bartlett wrote:Look, I'm not a super-duper-conservationist. I've rigged to formations dozens of times. I've surveyed places that crunched and tinkled every time I took a step. I've accidentally broken soda straws with my helmet in tight stream passage, I've scarred flowstone with my descender on rope in tight spaces and I'm sure I've left blood (on-trail) in Lech. No one is on a high horse here. In fact, I don't think anyone's "panties are in a wad," unless your photos gave some of our crusty old-timers more of a thrill than I've anticipated.

The bad part about being 6'3" is I have broken those same formation clusters in ceilings a lot higher than crawl ways. I've broken formations before from tripping, falling, or blindly walking into something while exhausted. I try like hell not to touch them if I can help it and i certianly don't take pics of myself doing it. The only advice I can offer would have been to own up to the mistake and say my bad. We've all done it but doing it , posting the photo and asking for critique isn't something the rest of us have done. Chalk it up as a learning experience and move on.

I believe someone mentioned moving on?

wyandottecaver wrote:I believe someone mentioned moving on?

Yes please.

Jeff Bartlett wrote:I'm sure I've left blood (on-trail) in Lech.

No you didn't. I cleaned it up for you while you were whimpering, like a little girl, in a corset.

Now, THAT'S funny!

How to retain and recruit members?? Do not have topics that turn into threads like this. This should be in a members only section. One thing I don't like about this board sometimes is the negativity that sometimes occurs. I think the whole topic should be deleted. It's not very good for pr. Amy I do more reading on cavechat than posting. I remember when you first joined reading your posts, you could feel the enthusiasm and excitement. Don't be discouraged. Take plenty of pictures, leave as few footprints as you can and leave as much undisturbed as possible while still enjoying caving for what it is . Like it or not everything we do underground makes an impact.

I totally agree Mudduck!

Amy,
I'll not jump on the did she or didn't she touch this or that. I think that that has been more than covered from every angle and dimension. What I will do is offer my thoughts. Yes lights are expensive and bulky so look for ways to improvise. Mini mags and helmet lights (especially a Fennex HP 10) can have the old translucent 35mm canisters used as diffusers and wont add to pack bulk or deplete your bank account and the lights should already be with you. These might add a touch of soft light here and there to get the effect I think you're going for. Now in my opinion the whole corset in a cave thing works much better in black and white. The subject matter matches the technology of the era you are portraying. So at least for me the B&W works better. An awful lot of truly great B&W photos would be little more than slightly interesting if shot in color. B&W causes you to use some imagination when you look at it where color can make the viewer lazy, impressed maybe but lazy. Hey maybe I'd like the shot but the corset is green or blue ... or the shot would be better if the formations had more color. B&W makes you work the shot harder but can give you more control over the viewer, if that makes any sense.

Another on the cheap light defuser would be scotch tape (the frosted not the clear) But I don't really like it as it is hard to remove in a cave and heat from the light can make the stickum hard to remove when you want your light to be normal. Look around your house for plastic that is frosted, like tupperware. Another cool thing about B&W is you could get some interesting things to happen with colored filters (tupperware lids???) which would change what the camera sees but not add weird colors to a color shot.

Anyway that's my two cents worth.

P.S.
Whatever you do, don't tell anybody if your corset has whale bone for the ribs!!

Amy. I think your pictures are nice. I think art is in the eye of the beholder. What one person might like another may hate. That's why I would never ask anyone to critique my art. It's not for them anyways. It's for me. If others like great if they don't I don't really care. If you ask for what others think your going to get it. Good, bad and ugly.

Half the fun is trying to fiqure out what works best in photos try different lights, subjects, caves, shutter speeds, painting with lights. Most of all you get to go caving and enjoy yourself.

I like your pics. They are unique and different.

When digital photography came out it seems like everyone became a professional overnight. The ease and use of digital brought out lots of experimentation and today's improved sensors also helped those in desperate need of creating images they thought were not possible only a few years ago. Biggest problem I see is most people don't know what a good photo is and others just want to be nice and not hurt anyone's feelings. The issue of touching a formation or not is a non issue in my opinion. While I do not exhibit such in my own images, what you do is up to you and you will suffer the critique from it as evident here. Your photos are quite lacking in many areas as you (yourself) state you see things you would change already. Single light set ups rarely do cave photos justice and your composition is off. The "artsy" look usually ends up where only a few people can understand it and those are usually the ones who offer continual false praises because they don't know what a good photo is. I know the challenges of being the model, photographer, and light tech all at the same time because I have done it on numerous occasions. It can be difficult. Also, quit whining. You asked for this critique.

On another note. Retaining and recruiting members is not my concern. I would rather have good quality people than quantity.

bob biddix
Innermost Imagery
Http://www.innermostimagery.com