Myotis sodalis

Please post all bat-related stories, discussions here.

Moderator: Moderators

Myotis sodalis

Postby GypsumWolf » Nov 12, 2006 9:17 am

Are these Indiana Bats (Myotis sodalis)?

Image
Check out my web-server: http://unserv.net/
User avatar
GypsumWolf
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 507
Joined: Jan 24, 2006 9:02 am
Location: TAG
  

Postby Teresa » Nov 12, 2006 12:08 pm

You likely have to take a bat biologist with you to make a 100% ID. My guess is little brown or small footed. Definitely myotine. Around here, Indianas often (not always) have pink or light tan noses, and frizzy, dullish fur. The decisive characteristic is a keeled calcar (a keel on the membrane next to the ankle) and that is pretty impossible to tell unless you are holding the animal and know what you are looking for (NOT a good idea for an amateur.)

These may not be being colonial--they just might like each other!
Teresa
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 1413
Joined: Dec 31, 2005 9:06 pm
  

I know

Postby GypsumWolf » Nov 12, 2006 5:21 pm

These are definitly colonial. I have seen them in bigger groups in the same cave, they are also in the range for sodalis. I think two of them may have been mating.
Check out my web-server: http://unserv.net/
User avatar
GypsumWolf
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 507
Joined: Jan 24, 2006 9:02 am
Location: TAG
  

Postby Teresa » Nov 12, 2006 6:15 pm

Well, all of the myotine bats are 'sort of' colonial...Indianas are known for hanging 3 to 5 deep at times. I've seen little browns in clumps, too, but not the 100s in a big group in a small space that Indianas are.

As I said before, you're better off taking a bat biologist to the cave rather than trying to ID them from a photograph, and any positive ID is going to be have to be made onsite. BTW, you are past the winter closure dates for Indiana hibernacula. Have you checked with your state conservation or natural resources people to find out if this cave is actually one of those closed caves? Not all closed caves have gates on them. You might email this photo to whomever is responsible for Indianas in your state (either US Fish and Wildlife, or a designated agency), and tell them what cave it is. There is a pretty hefty federal fine for being in an endangered species closed cave. (Not intending to be threatening, just to save you some grief.)
Teresa
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 1413
Joined: Dec 31, 2005 9:06 pm
  

This

Postby GypsumWolf » Nov 12, 2006 8:30 pm

This cave is not closed. I am not a beginner caver.

I have seen little browns before and big browns and these do not look the same to me. I do have pictures from several angles on my computer.

Yes, I would like to have a biologist on site, maybe I can ask if there is one at the next grotto meeting. I am a biologist but not a professional one yet.
Check out my web-server: http://unserv.net/
User avatar
GypsumWolf
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 507
Joined: Jan 24, 2006 9:02 am
Location: TAG
  

Postby batbio » Nov 12, 2006 9:34 pm

It is hard to tell from these photos, but from the way they are hanging and the dorsal/ventral contrast that is barely visible on the one, I would have to say that they are little browns.
batbio
Infrequent Poster
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Jan 5, 2006 11:57 am
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
  

Postby Teresa » Nov 12, 2006 9:38 pm

If you're not a beginner caver, then you should know about the fines for harassing endangered species, especially ones in decline. The feds sometimes have really interesting ideas about what constitutes harassment--and there doesn't have to be a cave gate in sight.

There are a bunch of species of myotine bats in the central US, and they are all fairly difficult for anyone but an expert to tell apart. I showed the photo to a 30 year caver with a master's in biology who has done bat ID professionally, and he was skeptical. Hopefully come Monday morning some of the bat bios who hang out here will weigh in.
Teresa
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 1413
Joined: Dec 31, 2005 9:06 pm
  

Postby GypsumWolf » Nov 13, 2006 9:40 am

Teresa wrote:If you're not a beginner caver, then you should know about the fines for harassing endangered species, especially ones in decline. The feds sometimes have really interesting ideas about what constitutes harassment--and there doesn't have to be a cave gate in sight.

There are a bunch of species of myotine bats in the central US, and they are all fairly difficult for anyone but an expert to tell apart. I showed the photo to a 30 year caver with a master's in biology who has done bat ID professionally, and he was skeptical. Hopefully come Monday morning some of the bat bios who hang out here will weigh in.


I was not harassing them.
Check out my web-server: http://unserv.net/
User avatar
GypsumWolf
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 507
Joined: Jan 24, 2006 9:02 am
Location: TAG
  

Bats (this is kind of off topic)

Postby Vertigo » Nov 16, 2006 6:19 pm

I cave with Wolf. He doesn't harass bats and is careful not harm or disturb them. I love bats :bat2: :bat2: :bat: :cave softly: Don't wake the bats. :grin:
User avatar
Vertigo
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 500
Joined: Sep 28, 2006 8:06 pm
Location: Chattanooga, TN
  

Postby Teresa » Nov 16, 2006 9:19 pm

Both Wildwolf and Caver 86 need to go back and read my post more carefully. I did *not* accuse Wolf of harassing bats. What I said was: "The feds sometimes have really interesting ideas about what constitutes harassment--and there doesn't have to be a cave gate in sight."

Even being the same cave with an endangered species at the wrong time can be considered harassment by some. At one point in my cave career, a friend of mine and I were asked by the owner to visit a known endangered cavefish site to look for the fish. A groundwater spill had extirpated the fish from this site four years prior to our visit, and previous searches had been unsuccessful. We found the fish. We did not capture it, or impede it in any way. Two of us saw it, so we had independent confirmation; it swam under a ledge before we could photograph it. We announced to the owner that we had found the fish, and called the local natural resources office with the report. We were told it was a good thing we didn't photograph it, for if we had, that would constitute proof of harassment. Needless to say, I went home and read the actual Endangered Species Act.

To this day, I still don't understand how seeing an endangered species in a cave with owner permission is harassment, especially when the authorities weren't expending their own time and resources to look. My statement was just a word to the wise for Wildwolf-- what a caver might think is Ok behavior can have an entirely different meaning to someone who narrowly interprets the ESA.
Teresa
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 1413
Joined: Dec 31, 2005 9:06 pm
  

I understand

Postby GypsumWolf » Nov 16, 2006 9:50 pm

I understand. People have many different opinions then other people so I just do what I believe to be correct. Of course I do listen to what other people say and then I take it into consideration.
Check out my web-server: http://unserv.net/
User avatar
GypsumWolf
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 507
Joined: Jan 24, 2006 9:02 am
Location: TAG
  

Postby NZcaver » Nov 19, 2006 5:50 am

Teresa wrote:<snip>
We announced to the owner that we had found the fish, and called the local natural resources office with the report. We were told it was a good thing we didn't photograph it, for if we had, that would constitute proof of harassment. Needless to say, I went home and read the actual Endangered Species Act.

To this day, I still don't understand how seeing an endangered species in a cave with owner permission is harassment, especially when the authorities weren't expending their own time and resources to look. My statement was just a word to the wise for Wildwolf-- what a caver might think is Ok behavior can have an entirely different meaning to someone who narrowly interprets the ESA.

Hi Teresa,

Now I understand why you reacted to a simple bat photo with strong cautionary advice. I was wondering about that. Bearing your last story in mind, it's a wonder I don't get arrested on a regular basis for "harassing" (aka photographing) bats and other wildlife. Perhaps photographing protected speleothems indicates I was harassing those, as well?

I too fail to understand how your situation could possibly be considered harassment. One wonders if that local natural resource office were just a tad over-zealous in their proclamation (or possibly just plain wrong)... :roll:
User avatar
NZcaver
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 6339
Joined: Sep 7, 2005 2:05 am
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Name: Jansen
NSS #: 50665RL
  

Postby Komebeaux » Dec 5, 2006 12:40 pm

There are two ways to ID a Sodalis.


1. Their lips are very pink. They are very noticable. When they are roosting in groups, their lips stand out as rows of "pink stripes".


2. Hairy feet. I don't recommend you get close enough to inspect their feet because that might qualify as harassment, but an Indiana bat has very long hairs growing on their feet. Not thick fur, but just several long hairs sticking out on thier feet.
User avatar
Komebeaux
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 245
Joined: Dec 1, 2006 2:25 pm
Location: Martinsburg, WV
Name: Danny Cumbo
NSS #: 58430
  

Postby Komebeaux » Dec 5, 2006 12:43 pm

Also, another thing. If you think these might be Indiana Bats, please call the US Fish and Wildlife Service. Depending on the region, they may have an endangered species specialist nearby to check this out.
User avatar
Komebeaux
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 245
Joined: Dec 1, 2006 2:25 pm
Location: Martinsburg, WV
Name: Danny Cumbo
NSS #: 58430
  

Postby tropicalbats » Dec 6, 2006 1:10 am

Komebeaux wrote:There are two ways to ID a Sodalis.


1. Their lips are very pink. They are very noticable. When they are roosting in groups, their lips stand out as rows of "pink stripes".


2. Hairy feet. I don't recommend you get close enough to inspect their feet because that might qualify as harassment, but an Indiana bat has very long hairs growing on their feet. Not thick fur, but just several long hairs sticking out on thier feet.


One of the morphological characteristics that is used to idenify Indiana bats is the lack of long toe hairs. The hairs are quite short and generally do not extend beyond the toe.

Keith
User avatar
tropicalbats
Prolific Poster
 
Posts: 104
Joined: Sep 5, 2005 12:18 am
Location: Falls Church, VA
  

Next

Return to Everything Bats

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

cron