european bats...forced immigration....

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european bats...forced immigration....

Postby eyecave » Jan 31, 2013 12:18 am

i am new to this forum topic and i want to talk about an action we can start now to mute the effects of wns that should have already been thoroughly discussed on this site..... :roll: ..

wns originated from somewhere other than north or south america....and that bats where it came from have some immunity to wns.....if those two facts are true..then a potential solution is very strongly implied.... :popcorn: ..

if we import non-native bats into the caves where wns has already destroyed bat population we would begin the reversal of the eventual very very near extermination of north and south american's bats...BY NEXT SPRING...the ONLY logical argument against this is that, along with the bats, is the potential introduction of someotherthing that decimates the population of some other north american creature...

the most ridiculous argument against this would be that of maintaining the genetic purity of native bats... :yikes: ...by introducing the genetic immunity characteristic found in some bats to wns....we are accelerating what will take some hundreds of years to naturally occur, if not longer..i acknowledge that essentially genetic adaptation of the native bats would begin with the first sucessful hibernation of a native bat with wns....as such it would begin within the first 20 years of this mass extinction we are witnessing..probably much sooner....

first you gotta accept that our native species will become very nearly extinct. :shhh: ..i am certain that the surviving native bats would interbreed readily or not and instead collect with other native bats and slowly rebuild the exterminated native bat colonies and fit in with the imported bats enough so that both types survive... :wink: ..

...import, not extinction........desperate times can demand actions not necessarily perfect in the ideal world..... :sadbanana: ...
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Re: european bats...forced immigration....

Postby wyandottecaver » Jan 31, 2013 9:01 pm

wow,

I don't know where to begin... Oh, why import bats along with the trouble and risk that brings when England and other countries do just fine with a bare handful and the US already has native species (including bats who dont roost communally) that can fill most of the ecological roles. (guano deposits in caves being a rare exception) Biologically....well lets see.

wns originated from somewhere other than north or south america....and that bats where it came from have some immunity to wns.....if those two facts are true..then a potential solution is very strongly implied...

The first statement is strongly suspected and probably true, but not a known fact. The second depends on your definition of "immunity" but it is at least fair to say that bats in Europe (where WNS MIGHT have originated and certainly has been observed longer) tend to survive WNS better, at least in the short run. It is at least possible that WNS kills every European bat it infects...just over a longer period of time allowing enough reproduction to maintain small populations. Im not sure we know either way.

if we import non-native bats into the caves where wns has already destroyed bat population we would begin the reversal of the eventual very very near extermination of north and south american's bats...BY NEXT SPRING...the ONLY logical argument against this is that, along with the bats, is the potential introduction of someotherthing that decimates the population of some other north american creature...

Well, South America's bats aren't known to be affected and probably never will since WNS does not do well in warm climates. Near extermination really only applies to the NE US at this point, and even that is quite debatable. Your argument is indeed logical, there are many others. removing that many non native bats might imperil them in their homeland, non-native bats may not survive here themselves due to many factors, non native bats in this environment may become just as susceptable to WNS as native ones, non native bats might do too well and become a vast plague across the land requiring us to find ways to wipe them out....on and on

the most ridiculous argument against this would be that of maintaining the genetic purity of native bats... ...by introducing the genetic immunity characteristic found in some bats to wns....we are accelerating what will take some hundreds of years to naturally occur, if not longer..i acknowledge that essentially genetic adaptation of the native bats would begin with the first sucessful hibernation of a native bat with wns....as such it would begin within the first 20 years of this mass extinction we are witnessing..probably much sooner....

Well, I won't say the argument for "genetic purity" is ridiculous, but introducing non native bats who in all probability won't breed with native ones means we aren't talking about genetic purity or introducing genetic anything. We are simply replacing one species with another one from a far distant location and that probably would not have "naturally occured" at all...ever.

"mass extinction" by definition means none of the extinct are adapting to anything. Successful hibernation has nothing to do with genetic adaptation of native species and successful hibernation of native WNS bats has already been documented many times. Genetic adaptation requires 1) a gene is present in the first place that is "more" adaptable (we dont know this and haven't even observed anything that supports it strongly.) 2) That adaptable gene has to impart greater reproduction success.... Again, maybe it's happening, certainly hasn't been shown.

first you gotta accept that our native species will become very nearly extinct. ..i am certain that the surviving native bats would interbreed readily or not and instead collect with other native bats and slowly rebuild the exterminated native bat colonies and fit in with the imported bats enough so that both types survive... ..

Well, you don't have to accept that. They might become nearly extinct. Then again we have reason to suspect WNS will not be a factor in the deep south or west. We have some evidence it might become endemic but not truly imperil populations outside the NE.

You may be certain that bats of different species will interbreed and inter-roost readily...certainly a few hundred years of people watching hasn't shown that to be the case for interbreeding and it quite often isn't the case for roosting.
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Re: european bats...forced immigration....

Postby eyecave » Jan 31, 2013 9:55 pm

i am sure that you understand my first two points.......wns came from somewhere else and bats there deal much better with it than do bats here.....i fail to see the importance of your first two arguments since they have no relevance.....and i do thank you for naming the only logical argument and concocting several i didn't think of......though some of your points could be easily addressed and "a plague of overpopulation of non-native bats".......really....and if that became true we would have fewer flying night-time insects.....

i am not discussing a definition of genetic adaptation.......i am proposing a situation...........what i have learned is a very very very small percentage of native bats show a genetic trait enabling them to survive wns infection...and how do these same bats do the next hibernation period?..i am acknowledging that we are facing a mass extinction event of which some native bats will survive and reproduce and thrive.......

what you are proposing is that we do nothing......that we depend on climate to limit wns and not think that it might adapt to temperature......what if you are wrong and south america's bats are at severe risk?..i guess we could wait till texas bats are mass dying from wns before we did anything..........you also feel that taking bats from europe will cause european bats to become imperiled and you basically say that extinction is preferable to genetic interbreeding.....though in one sentence you say interbreeding is unlikely and in another sentence you are positive it will occur....i think the survival of bats in this half of the world is important enough that we could do it safely.......we could start with a small shipment of say 10 french bats...i don't think that would imperial europes bats..

i appreciate your input.....but you are so very wrong...we are facing a MASS EXTINCTION EVENT and i see absolutely nothing wrong with starting a restoration action in its earliest phases..to argue semantic based arguments or such very predictable points stands in the way of constructive actions and accomplishes nothing which is what you propose we do, surely this has been discussed to death on this forum in the past...........
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Re: european bats...forced immigration....

Postby Myrna Attaway » Feb 3, 2013 2:53 am

It is my understanding that europe doesnt have bats that hibernate in large colonys like all of our imperiled specis do. Of course we have endangered bats that dont. The point I was going to make is that our large colonies make it very obvious when there is a large die off. It may occur in europe and not be as obvious. Not likely but possible.

Historicaly when large populations have a disease that causes mass fatalities there is a small population that survives and repopuates the environment. With documented cases of this, it is very very premature to think about bringing in a substite species. Bats arent the only animals who fly at night and eat insects. Those species will fill the void left if the worst happens.

It is extremly unlikly that europen species would interbreed with the native ones.

By the way I have a Masters in biology.
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Re: European bats...forced immigration....

Postby caverdan » Feb 3, 2013 12:29 pm

Bringing in non native species doesn't sound like a good idea to me. :doh: Sounds like a good experiment for Plum Island, though. :big grin: :argue:

I also believe that WNS....if and when it does raise it's ugly head out West....will come over the Great Lakes and down through Canada. Maybe we can mist net the border to keep them illegal aliens out. :kewl:
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Re: european bats...forced immigration....

Postby eyecave » Feb 3, 2013 8:51 pm

Myrna Attaway wrote:It is my understanding that europe doesnt have bats that hibernate in large colonys like all of our imperiled specis do. Of course we have endangered bats that dont. The point I was going to make is that our large colonies make it very obvious when there is a large die off. It may occur in europe and not be as obvious. Not likely but possible.

Historicaly when large populations have a disease that causes mass fatalities there is a small population that survives and repopuates the environment. With documented cases of this, it is very very premature to think about bringing in a substite species. Bats arent the only animals who fly at night and eat insects. Those species will fill the void left if the worst happens.

It is extremly unlikly that europen species would interbreed with the native ones.

By the way I have a Masters in biology.


i am in agreement with all you say... :clap: ....in the past i have been so radical to have said that all TAG cavers should cease caving during bat hibernation periods to assist the survival of those few genetically wns gifted bats that will eventually repopulate the colonies we have and will see nearly or completely disappear.. :yikes: ..i also don't see them interbreeding; but it could occur, such things have happened in the past... :laughing: .

there actually aren't that many night flying creatures who feed on insects.... :shhh: ..bats pretty much rule there.....swallows don't fly and hunt in the dark do they?..i thought they were dawn and dusk flyers....owls are certainly out.......i do agree that there are a lot of surface critters who would feed on insects at night.......spiders, possums, coons, skunks and such, they would increase for sure.....pleasant thought.... :sadbanana: ..

all i am saying is we are facing an extraordinary biological event, something that sadly i am afraid those long lived members of our generation may see again and again......mankind can sit and rely on nature and semantic arguments like those who said global warming was a natural event that we shouldn't worry about.....or we can act intelligently and decisively...a small number of european bats introduced in those northeastern caves most effected is such an action... :sadbanana:

by the way, if i retire from practice i might teach biology in a local college...its one of those things i can do with my degree......
Last edited by eyecave on Feb 3, 2013 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: European bats...forced immigration....

Postby eyecave » Feb 3, 2013 8:58 pm

caverdan wrote:Bringing in non native species doesn't sound like a good idea to me. :doh: Sounds like a good experiment for Plum Island, though. :big grin: :argue:

I also believe that WNS....if and when it does raise it's ugly head out West....will come over the Great Lakes and down through Canada. Maybe we can mist net the border to keep them illegal aliens out. :kewl:


slightly different situation......i am not proposing the introduction of a predator to a breeding colony area........next argument..... :shrug: .

fantasizing about a species extinction event is it really funny? :shhh:
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Re: European bats...forced immigration....

Postby Teresa » Feb 3, 2013 11:21 pm

What you propose is even worse than what has already happened.

European bats HAVE WNS. Why should be deliberately bring more of it here? That is argurably insane. If you fight fire with fire, sometimes all you get is a bigger fire.

Here is a partial list of foreign species importees with negative and unintended consequences. We've got enough problems, already.

Emerald Ashborer -- decimating American ash trees
Chestnut blight -- has already killed most American chestnut trees and their near relatives
African bees -- do xbreed, into "killer" bees
Chytrid fungus -- killing American frogs, salamanders, hellbenders, etc.
Japanese honeysuckle and kudzu -- choking American forests
Lespedeza
Cow Vetch
brush honeysuckle
Dutch Elm disease
multiflora rose
Asian Carp
Starlings
Mediterranean fruit flies
Japanese beetles
Gypsy moths
Grass carp
Cowbirds
house sparrows
Snakehead fish
Walking catfish
Burmese Pythons
mongeese and pigs in Hawaii
Russian boar
purple loosestrife
Chicory
Johnson grass
Nutria
European rats
Didymo and hundreds more.
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Re: european bats...forced immigration....

Postby Myrna Attaway » Feb 3, 2013 11:58 pm

Goshawks are birds that feed at night on insects. Several insectavorous species miagrate at night and feed on the fly.

Good points Teresa. Great list. Let us not even talk about cuban frogs, pigs, pythons etc or what invasive species have done to other countries.
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Re: European bats...forced immigration....

Postby eyecave » Feb 4, 2013 12:28 am

Teresa wrote:What you propose is even worse than what has already happened.

European bats HAVE WNS. Why should be deliberately bring more of it here? That is argurably insane. If you fight fire with fire, sometimes all you get is a bigger fire.

Here is a partial list of foreign species importees with negative and unintended consequences. We've got enough problems, already.

Emerald Ashborer -- decimating American ash trees
Chestnut blight -- has already killed most American chestnut trees and their near relatives
African bees -- do xbreed, into "killer" bees
Chytrid fungus -- killing American frogs, salamanders, hellbenders, etc.
Japanese honeysuckle and kudzu -- choking American forests
Lespedeza
Cow Vetch
brush honeysuckle
Dutch Elm disease
multiflora rose
Asian Carp
Starlings
Mediterranean fruit flies
Japanese beetles
Gypsy moths
Grass carp
Cowbirds
house sparrows
Snakehead fish
Walking catfish
Burmese Pythons
mongeese and pigs in Hawaii
Russian boar
purple loosestrife
Chicory
Johnson grass
Nutria
European rats
Didymo and hundreds more.



yes,..........european bats already have it (wns)and survive it (wns)..........and also........not a single one of those examples of maladaptations you exhaustively listed were a deliberate attempt at replacement due to an extinction event, so they don't compare to what i am proposing........and, additionally you left White Nose Syndrome off that list of problems...flash.......it came from europe............
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Re: european bats...forced immigration....

Postby eyecave » Feb 4, 2013 1:09 am

Myrna Attaway wrote:Goshawks are birds that feed at night on insects. Several insectavorous species miagrate at night and feed on the fly.
Good points Teresa. Great list. Let us not even talk about cuban frogs, pigs, pythons etc or what invasive species have done to other countries.


so i can expect less bugs once a year in each hemisphere........like i said.....bats rule....

not talking about the bad mankind has done since darwin dears...........not talking about invasion at allll......talking extinction event.........i think you are all comparing apples to oranges........of all the list i would bet that most of the introduced things in the list were not intended as a replacement due to an extinction event....its a new day.....global warming is real.....unnecessary violence in film incites violence in viewers......vitamins work.......etc.....

just saying.....
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Re: european bats...forced immigration....

Postby BrianC » Feb 4, 2013 6:40 pm

Why did dinosaurs and many other creatures go extinct and not repopulate even though many creatures popular at a similar times have? Man wasn't here to spread the CO2 global warming scenario during those many events. Bats will survive if it is in their genes, and not if not. :yikes:
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Re: european bats...forced immigration....

Postby BrianC » Feb 4, 2013 6:53 pm

It is very possible that a few years ago whence much of North America was still ice capped, bats had no place to survive until the warming that continues allowed them a habitat. This shows that anything is possible. Earth will probably see a similar cooling and heating again, if not many more times. The water of everlasting life is real, but unfortunately to many are willing to listen to their education, and blindly resolve to their inevitability.
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Re: european bats...forced immigration....

Postby eyecave » Feb 4, 2013 8:56 pm

BrianC wrote:Why did dinosaurs and many other creatures go extinct and not repopulate even though many creatures popular at a similar times have? Man wasn't here to spread the CO2 global warming scenario during those many events. Bats will survive if it is in their genes, and not if not. :yikes:


the earth was struck by a large asteroid.....it created a type of nuclear winter and the dino's died off.........CO2 is not affecting bats currently.......many creatures have disappeared due to changes in habitat....some have been hunted to extinction..point being a lot of stuff can cause extinction events.......we will see the extinctions caused by CO2.....
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Re: european bats...forced immigration....

Postby caver.adam » Feb 5, 2013 10:58 am

The original poster ignores the rule/law of unintended consequences.

1) By introducing non-native bats you can cause a situations where bats do poorly in either the short term or the long term. You could drive the native species to extinction by your actions instead of the near extinction they may be up against. Or, you might prevent nature from coming up with a new and novel solution to the problem that would be of evolutionary advantage in the long term.

2) Introducing non-native species has a history of unintended effects. There are several instances from plant, to fish, to canine. Just because one person says "I don't see anything that can go wrong here" doesn't mean there isn't anything that can go wrong.
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