Doubtful WNS Cause of AZ Bat Deaths

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Doubtful WNS Cause of AZ Bat Deaths

Postby PYoungbaer » Dec 30, 2010 11:49 am

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/a ... 6ff30.html

Mexican freetails; bridge site; road salt. Still, the story illustrates how on edge authorities are about WNS.
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Re: Doubtful WNS Cause of AZ Bat Deaths

Postby BrianC » Dec 30, 2010 2:41 pm

Stated that the same salt solution has been used there for twenty years lends to the thought that another cause should be investigated.
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Re: Doubtful WNS Cause of AZ Bat Deaths

Postby graveleye » Dec 30, 2010 2:42 pm

OMG SHUT DOWN ALL THE BRIDGES QUICKLY.
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Re: Doubtful WNS Cause of AZ Bat Deaths

Postby Jon » Jan 2, 2011 1:57 am

Great first I pick a state to live in that has no caves to speak of, now people want me to live where we have no bridges to drive on! :yikes:
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Re: Doubtful WNS Cause of AZ Bat Deaths

Postby PYoungbaer » Jan 8, 2011 8:54 am

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Re: Doubtful WNS Cause of AZ Bat Deaths

Postby BrianC » Jan 8, 2011 10:09 am



I guess the culprits didn't get the memo.

Killing bats is a crime, but many folks just look at bats as bloodsucking rabies carrying pests.
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Re: Doubtful WNS Cause of AZ Bat Deaths

Postby Jon » Jan 11, 2011 1:42 am

How about if they catch the SOB responsible somebody gets to shoot the bas---- 80 times with a BB gun? Better yet make a size caliber adjustment and whack him/her with a 50 cal or a 12 gauge slug? Wanna bet the poor misunderstood child wont be charged with felony animal cruelty charges? Bet there would be more public outcry if it was a bunch of cute chipmunks or pretty songbirds. Don't get me wrong I'm not condoning the slaughter of more socially acceptable animals, but I do get a bit bent when someone picks and chooses who or what is worth saving. Many kids shoot birds, chipmunks or maybe a bat with a BB gun. Most realized their mistake and didn't repeat it. But to systematically kill at least 80 (how many flew off to die elsewhere or were not otherwise found) we are talking one sick puppy here. Somebody needs to put that BB gun away where only a proctologist can retrieve it.
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Re: Doubtful WNS Cause of AZ Bat Deaths

Postby wyandottecaver » Jan 11, 2011 5:53 pm

hindsight is 20 20.

When I was a uncultured hillbilly youth of 8-9 I wouldn't have batted an eye at killing 80 bats with a BB gun. I knew not to shoot buildings, cars, people, dogs and cats anytime, and songbirds when my mom was watching. Otherwise it was little different than the buffalo hunters on the plains...

While I would certainly view such behaviour in an adult differently, I would hardly make the leap that the perpetrator must be a crazed sicko. Country kids shoot stuff.
Last edited by wyandottecaver on Jan 13, 2011 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Doubtful WNS Cause of AZ Bat Deaths

Postby BrianC » Jan 12, 2011 12:59 pm

wyandottecaver wrote:hindsight is 20 20.

When I was a uncultured hillbilly youth of 8-9 I wouldn't have batted an eye at killing 80 bats with a BB gun. I knew not to shoot buildings, cars, people, dogs and cats anytime, and songbirds when my mom was watching. Otherwise it was little different than the buffalo hunters on the plains...

While I would certainly view such behaviour in an adult differently, I would hardly make the leap that the perpetrator must be a crazed sicko. Country kids shoot stuff. It's what kept America free for a long time.


Exactly! Most folks don't have a clue that bats should not be shot, or even that bats are good for insect control. WNS could be construed as another reason to get rid of pests, without knowledge from conservation groups showing bats importance.
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Re: Doubtful WNS Cause of AZ Bat Deaths

Postby Jon » Jan 19, 2011 1:35 am

Yes years ago things were different. However we are talking about downtown Tucson, 2010 / 2011 not out in the sticks 1955. Kids today get more enviro friendly training in school. Actually this is a good case for teaching gun safety and proper handling in the public schools. When I was a kid yeah I had a BBgun, lived in suburbs, if I got caught killing a bird or such said BB gun would have been gone for a long time. Had I whacked 80 or more anything I would have had the joy of having to watch as the BB gun was destroyed. Don't know what the rest of the punishment would have been but I'm pretty sure that to this day I wouldn't be able to harness up and go on rope. Keep in mind that kids in school can be suspended or expelled for bullying and that can be as little as name calling.
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Re: Doubtful WNS Cause of AZ Bat Deaths

Postby NZcaver » Jan 19, 2011 2:27 am

wyandottecaver wrote:hindsight is 20 20.

When I was a uncultured hillbilly youth of 8-9 I wouldn't have batted an eye at killing 80 bats with a BB gun. I knew not to shoot buildings, cars, people, dogs and cats anytime, and songbirds when my mom was watching. Otherwise it was little different than the buffalo hunters on the plains...

While I would certainly view such behaviour in an adult differently, I would hardly make the leap that the perpetrator must be a crazed sicko. Country kids shoot stuff.

Wow. You make this sound almost like a normal upbringing. I agree the perpetrator may not necessarily be a crazed sicko, but hindsight aside this is still grossly inappropriate behavior and needs to be corrected. Incidentally, the location where the bats were killed in well within city limits and I doubt the person (or persons) responsible is a "country kid."

Growing up in suburbia, I suppose I was a bit of an uncultured youth myself. I knew where the air gun (aka "slug gun") was kept when I was about 8 or 9, and I knew how to load and shoot it. I also knew not to shoot at buildings, cars, people, dogs, or cats... BUT I also knew never to shoot at birds or ANY living creatures! I don't know that I was ever taught this specifically, but I knew right from wrong. Sure I did some stupid things as a kid, but I believe the first time I killed anything with a weapon was shooting rabbits and possums on a farm with a .22 rifle. They are invasive/destructive species, so this was done as a favor for the landowner. With appropriate safety precautions and the use of suppressors so as not to disturb the stock and neighbors.

I have no problem with responsible hunting, but shooting at anything - especially living creatures - with wanton disregard for the consequences is unacceptable. :down:

Jon wrote:Actually this is a good case for teaching gun safety and proper handling in the public schools.

:exactly:
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Re: Doubtful WNS Cause of AZ Bat Deaths

Postby graveleye » Jan 19, 2011 2:48 pm

NZcaver wrote:
wyandottecaver wrote:hindsight is 20 20.

When I was a uncultured hillbilly youth of 8-9 I wouldn't have batted an eye at killing 80 bats with a BB gun. I knew not to shoot buildings, cars, people, dogs and cats anytime, and songbirds when my mom was watching. Otherwise it was little different than the buffalo hunters on the plains...

While I would certainly view such behaviour in an adult differently, I would hardly make the leap that the perpetrator must be a crazed sicko. Country kids shoot stuff.

Wow. You make this sound almost like a normal upbringing. I agree the perpetrator may not necessarily be a crazed sicko, but hindsight aside this is still grossly inappropriate behavior and needs to be corrected. Incidentally, the location where the bats were killed in well within city limits and I doubt the person (or persons) responsible is a "country kid."

Growing up in suburbia, I suppose I was a bit of an uncultured youth myself. I knew where the air gun (aka "slug gun") was kept when I was about 8 or 9, and I knew how to load and shoot it. I also knew not to shoot at buildings, cars, people, dogs, or cats... BUT I also knew never to shoot at birds or ANY living creatures! I don't know that I was ever taught this specifically, but I knew right from wrong. Sure I did some stupid things as a kid, but I believe the first time I killed anything with a weapon was shooting rabbits and possums on a farm with a .22 rifle. They are invasive/destructive species, so this was done as a favor for the landowner. With appropriate safety precautions and the use of suppressors so as not to disturb the stock and neighbors.

I have no problem with responsible hunting, but shooting at anything - especially living creatures - with wanton disregard for the consequences is unacceptable. :down:

Jon wrote:Actually this is a good case for teaching gun safety and proper handling in the public schools.

:exactly:


I shot a robin when I was ten and my dad saw me do it. He made me clean it... then cook and eat it.
He had warned me to never shoot anything unless I intended to eat it (barring vermin of course).

It wasn't too bad actually, but I still prefer your regular game birds or fowl. The point was driven home with me at a very early age though.
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Re: Doubtful WNS Cause of AZ Bat Deaths

Postby wyandottecaver » Jan 19, 2011 6:32 pm

Killing bats and shooting inside city limits is generally illegal. So is speeding and not paying tax on internet purchases......legal is legal, but right and wrong are very subjective. Just sayin.

Certainly times have changed...some. But whether your a farm kid or a ghetto kid virtually all kids still have a fascination with guns. Shooting 80 tin cans or 80 bats has as much to do with education as any inherent psychosis.


The rest is long. read it or not :big grin:

I was born in the 70's. Silent Spring was published in 1962, but I didn't read it till 1992.

As I said, If I got *caught* shooting songbirds I was in trouble. That is different than having an inherent belief as a 8 yr old that the fun of shooting a bird I had "ambushed" was bad. (birds will learn to avoid little boys as easily as cats) Shooting 80 rats? 80 bats? I wouldn't have batted an eye and my mom would have probably made me a pie. (yea I would have considered rats and bats as comparable vermin). I have an article at home somewhere where a 2 story, 100 yr old home was "infested" by bats and was burned to the ground by it's owners!

I had no desire to shoot cows (they were good for something) or rabbits in the summer since they weren't considered safe to eat then. Animals were classed as livestock, edible game, and everything else.

By contrast, by brother who was raised in the same house shot basketballs instead of 22's and the only creature he ever shot was a single Robin. He just didn't like killing for any reason and really couldn't understand my love of hunting.

The un PC truth is that some people (including me) DO like hunting and at a more basic level killing. Hopefully that desire is shaped and tempered by a solid code of ethics and fundamental education of right and wrong at an early age. Unfortunately right and wrong are subjective on who's teaching you, and some people simply ignore any constraints. I suspect that being raised by the president of PETA vs Ghenghis Kahn would make a difference.

Were the adults and kids who killed the Carter Caves bats inherently evil or did their version of "right" just differ from ours? Gordon Birkenhimer would have us believe they were nearly sub-human animals whom should be punished to the fullest possible extent as an example...

I disagree. I have been in that cave in winter. I think the GATE placed on that cave in response (paid for by the USFWS) will help attract more bats to a death trap roost and one day kill far far more bats by drowning. (A nearly ideal, already protected, and heavily used roost is a short distance away) But drowning bats is ok as long as your "protecting" them. :doh:
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Re: Doubtful WNS Cause of AZ Bat Deaths

Postby Jon » Jan 20, 2011 2:21 am

[quote="wyandottecaver"]Killing bats and shooting inside city limits is generally illegal. So is speeding and not paying tax on internet purchases......legal is legal, but right and wrong are very subjective. Just sayin.

Certainly times have changed...some. But whether your a farm kid or a ghetto kid virtually all kids still have a fascination with guns. Shooting 80 tin cans or 80 bats has as much to do with education as any inherent psychosis.


I have to disagree. Right and wrong ARE NOT subjective. Right is right and wrong is wrong. You may try and justify with an interpretation but that does not actually change wrong to right except in your own mind. Mankind keeps evolving. (for the better????) and in this day and age there is no excuse for killing 80 animals for no reason other than your entertainment. Shooting 80 tin cans is fine but can not be compared in any way to 80 animals. (I will clarify that 80 rats in your cellar would be ok)

Maybe if we let kids be kids and actually let them call the fat kid "Fatty" or the tall skinny kid "Bean Pole" rather than sending them off to sensitivity training, maybe they wouldn't act out in such ways.

Anybody who tries to justify this action is certainly not helping as far as gun ownership, hunting or carry rights. Brushing it under the table is certainly not going to help bats.

Maybe one or two could be called curiosity, but 80 (that we know of) ? I would say that that kid warrants a different kind of sensitivity training, and soon. By the way the buffalo hunters actually harvested some (I know not much) of the critters, so that is not a valid comparison.
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Re: Doubtful WNS Cause of AZ Bat Deaths

Postby wyandottecaver » Jan 20, 2011 7:10 pm

jon,

Don't take this the wrong way...but people like you are where the Hitlers and Pol Pots come from. To be fair it's also where the George Pattons come from too.

You have the audacity to think that YOUR version of right and wrong is the only one. Whether it's that killing 80 bats is wrong or killing 8 million jews is right, the danger is the same.

Is killing millions of mosquitoes to try and prevent human sickness right? How about killing bats in populated urban areas (like under bridges in the suburbs) when we know bats can be carriers of rabies? Rats are sacred in some cultures but you seem to have no problem with mass rat murder. I'm not saying killing mosquitoes is wrong or bats is right...I'm saying that what MAKES it wrong or right is very subjective.

I actually do happen to believe that there are absolutes to right and wrong based on my religion...I just don't delude myself into thinking that reasonable people can't hold a different view and still be "normal".

By the way, The buffalo hunters did use some of the carcass. But mostly they were killing buffalo to starve indians who didn't farm and the government and railroads paid them for it. WE don't consider that *right*. But a whole lot of reasonable people sure did at the time.
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