NPR Radio spot on NE Bat extinction

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NPR Radio spot on NE Bat extinction

Postby Phil Winkler » Nov 9, 2010 11:43 am

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Re: NPR Radio spot on NE Bat extinction

Postby BrianC » Nov 10, 2010 9:12 am

Phil Winkler wrote:Heard this this morning:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129031005


"Yeah, well, you know, so, with humans moving pathogens around so."- not exact context, but its all there.

Duh now! He must have read that in some history book. another fine example of journalism from NPR.
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Re: NPR Radio spot on NE Bat extinction

Postby mae » Nov 10, 2010 1:43 pm

BrianC wrote:"Yeah, well, you know, so, with humans moving pathogens around so."- not exact context, but its all there.

Duh now! He must have read that in some history book. another fine example of journalism from NPR.



Downvote for being completely out of context, Brian! And Dr. Frick is female and not a journalist!

What it said:

FLATOW: There are frogs dying all over the world from a fungal infection. You have bats dying now from fungal infections. Could there be some kind of link between the two?

Dr. FRICK: Well, there's no link between the two fungi, that are the chytrid fungus that's attacking amphibians and this Geomyces destructans that's attacking the bats. But it does, you know, speak to the broader problem of wildlife disease and pathogens creating significant risks to species. And in the case of white-nose, the potential role of humans moving pathogens around.
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Re: NPR Radio spot on NE Bat extinction

Postby BrianC » Nov 10, 2010 2:22 pm

mae wrote:
BrianC wrote:"Yeah, well, you know, so, with humans moving pathogens around so."- not exact context, but its all there.

Duh now! He must have read that in some history book. another fine example of journalism from NPR.



Downvote for being completely out of context, Brian! And Dr. Frick is female and not a journalist!

What it said:

FLATOW: There are frogs dying all over the world from a fungal infection. You have bats dying now from fungal infections. Could there be some kind of link between the two?

Dr. FRICK: Well, there's no link between the two fungi, that are the chytrid fungus that's attacking amphibians and this Geomyces destructans that's attacking the bats. But it does, you know, speak to the broader problem of wildlife disease and pathogens creating significant risks to species. And in the case of white-nose, the potential role of humans moving pathogens around.


Just read what he, she, whatever, said, Mae, it is all there. I didn't intend for anyone to think the Dr was a journalist.
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Re: NPR Radio spot on NE Bat extinction

Postby NZcaver » Nov 10, 2010 3:44 pm

BrianC wrote:Just read what he, she, whatever, said, Mae, it is all there. I didn't intend for anyone to think the Dr was a journalist.

I read the entire transcript. I fail to understand what you're trying to say by misquoting what was said. :shrug:
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Re: NPR Radio spot on NE Bat extinction

Postby BrianC » Nov 10, 2010 4:13 pm

NZcaver wrote:
BrianC wrote:Just read what he, she, whatever, said, Mae, it is all there. I didn't intend for anyone to think the Dr was a journalist.

I read the entire transcript. I fail to understand what you're trying to say by misquoting what was said. :shrug:

That is ok!
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Re: NPR Radio spot on NE Bat extinction

Postby Leitmotiv » Nov 24, 2010 6:14 pm

Yeah BrianC your misquote was entirely and intentionally misleading. You can't quote something if you do it incorrectly. Try better next time.

It merely said "potential", which if we are all honest with ourselves, is neither confirming nor denying our involvement with the disease.
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Re: NPR Radio spot on NE Bat extinction

Postby wyandottecaver » Nov 24, 2010 8:21 pm

I find myself in the odd position of actually agreeing with Brian partially here. Yes, he did as he always does (and some of us sometimes do as well) he said what came to mind without regard for context or data.

However, while Dr. Fricks statement isn't necessarily that offkilter, it DOES reflect the pervasiveness of the USFWS strategy of tacitly promoting the people vector to support their obviously failed policy. We can say there is a potential for the sun to explode, or the potential to hit a deer on a dark country road. The problem is that with WNS the perception has been encouraged for folks to say "potential for human transmission" with the same expectation as they would say "potential for two horny teenagers to make out". Not the same expectation as they would say " potential for charlie sheen to give up sex". I mean virtually ANYTHING could potentially happen. In the case of WNS it's probably closer to "potential for gas prices to drop to $2.00/gal" I mean it might happen...but its pretty unlikely.
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Re: NPR Radio spot on NE Bat extinction

Postby Leitmotiv » Nov 25, 2010 1:49 am

BrianC still should have quoted correctly, instead of erroneously. And wyandottecaver I think you are being a little superfluous. Your examples are a little extreme.

That said, there is the potential there. The fungus seems to have spread from an epicenter, so there must have been some original vector. Probably not bats, since as far as I know they don't fly across the ocean or stow away on ships and then fly in hundreds of miles to a tourist cave.

Fungus spores are hardy organisms and are designed to last a long time. It's no stretch of the imagination to think of humans as a possible vector (albeit a minor one), let alone, birds, rodents, invertebrates, etc.

I totally understand humans are not the primary vector and play a small role if any in the spread of the fungus, but don't forget the potential is most definitely there.

Spores will cling to anything, and humans are no exception. Humans just don't grow the fungus.
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Re: NPR Radio spot on NE Bat extinction

Postby John Lovaas » Nov 25, 2010 9:05 am

Leitmotiv wrote: Probably not bats, since as far as I know they don't fly across the ocean or stow away on ships and then fly in hundreds of miles to a tourist cave.


Sorry Matt- two wrongs in one sentence don't make a right ;-)

"...since as far as I know they don't fly across the ocean or stow away on ships..."

Bat do stow away on ships- please read:

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol9no1/02-0104.htm

"...and then fly in hundreds of miles to a tourist cave..."

A) Distance from Albany's deepwater sea port to the cluster of NY caves where WNS was first noted: 40 miles. Not hundreds.

B) The first photograph of WNS was taken in 2006 in Howe's Cave. WNS was documented in a cluster of 5 caves(including Howe's Cave) in 2006-2007.
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Re: NPR Radio spot on NE Bat extinction

Postby ArCaver » Nov 25, 2010 12:25 pm

John Lovaas wrote:
Leitmotiv wrote: Probably not bats, since as far as I know they don't fly across the ocean or stow away on ships and then fly in hundreds of miles to a tourist cave.


Sorry Matt- two wrongs in one sentence don't make a right ;-)

"...since as far as I know they don't fly across the ocean or stow away on ships..."

Bat do stow away on ships- please read:

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol9no1/02-0104.htm

"...and then fly in hundreds of miles to a tourist cave..."

A) Distance from Albany's deepwater sea port to the cluster of NY caves where WNS was first noted: 40 miles. Not hundreds.

B) The first photograph of WNS was taken in 2006 in Howe's Cave. WNS was documented in a cluster of 5 caves(including Howe's Cave) in 2006-2007.


All true I'm sure, but the traffic across the Atlantic is two-way. I wish people would quit telling me the problem came from Europe when that is just a quickly invented, poorly thought out theory. The recent spread of g.destructans in Europe could be from bats, rats, birds, possums or racoons that stowed away in shipments from N.A. and escaped in some European port to spread a fungus that, at least so far, does not cause the mass mortalities attributed to it on this continent.
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Re: NPR Radio spot on NE Bat extinction

Postby BrianC » Nov 26, 2010 9:09 am

Leitmotiv wrote:Yeah BrianC your misquote was entirely and intentionally misleading. You can't quote something if you do it incorrectly. Try better next time.

It merely said "potential", which if we are all honest with ourselves, is neither confirming nor denying our involvement with the disease.


I said "not exact context" If you read the stuff you will see that it is all there. Sorry if you don't understand what is happening, but I will re-iterate, Humans do not spread White Nose Syndrome. We do move spores. You don't think spores last very long?, Do some research. Spores are natures way of protecting its self from extinction. The spores found with WNS will be here long after humans have gone.

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Re: NPR Radio spot on NE Bat extinction

Postby wyandottecaver » Nov 27, 2010 11:23 am

wow,

someone reads a few WNS topics and "poof" they are an expert......

1) If GD was in America before 2005-6 it almost certainly would have been noticed. If it originated in America in 2005-6 then it is quite unlikely that a fungus that looked the same and was later DNA tested to be the same would have been documented from Europe back in the 80's through present. Fungal infections of bats identical in appearance to GD were documented in Europe at least as far back as the mid 80's. However, in Europe it has not proven to have the same impact as in America. One current and very plausible theory is that GD has already wiped out susceptible european bats long ago and persisted among a remnant population until being introduced to the US. The fact that GD was not described as a species until recently is because that until it starting killing bats en mass in the US nobody particularly CARED about white fungus on bat noses. So far as everything I've seen, the "spread" of GD in europe is a spread of confirming the identity of a fungus already present.

2) GD has indeed exhibited a typical point source spread pattern. I would argue my examples are in fact quite accurate. If we look at the USFWS and media we see a "WNS spread by humans is probable and in fact quite likely and backed up by internal studies people wont publish" approach. If we look at brian C and those like him we see "WNS cant be spread by people, it is in fact impossible, and so we shouldn't even mention it". I postulated that "WNS human spread is possible, but totally unsupported in the real world, and thus very unlikely" (i.e. $2.00/gal gas).

It certainly isn't any stretch of the imagination to imagine humans as vectors and GD spores being transported by people and other animal vectors. The problem is you MUST use your imagination because there is ZERO data to support the supposition that that actually happens.

The main problem is that people equate transporting spores with being a vector. Wrong. To be a vector you have to transport viable spores to a viable habitat where they can then grow and infect a viable host. We have collected spores from cave gear immediately after exiting a cave when the purpose of the trip was to sample for spores upon exit. That doesn't even make us vectors of spores from one site to the next...let alone vectors of GD.
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Re: NPR Radio spot on NE Bat extinction

Postby BrianC » Nov 27, 2010 4:36 pm

wyandottecaver wrote: To be a vector you have to transport viable spores to a viable habitat where they can then grow and infect a viable host. We have collected spores from cave gear immediately after exiting a cave when the purpose of the trip was to sample for spores upon exit. That doesn't even make us vectors of spores from one site to the next...let alone vectors of GD.


wyandottecaver, You are assuming that the GD spores are the reason that WNS grows. This is the problem with all the hype of human transmission. Not one single fact provides evidence of this. The reason I am so sure humans can't spread WNS is backed up by this one small overlooked fact. The GD spores would be expected to completely have spread coast to coast by this date, but the White Nose Syndrome only shows up where the bats have cross contaminated. This is just pure fact, no hype, no myth, and unfortunately this fact doesn't support the monetary expenditure bat researchers, USFWS, and environmental folks need to justify their work. Sound familiar?
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Re: NPR Radio spot on NE Bat extinction

Postby ArCaver » Nov 28, 2010 5:45 am

wyandottecaver wrote:wow,

someone reads a few WNS topics and "poof" they are an expert......

1) If GD was in America before 2005-6 it almost certainly would have been noticed. If it originated in America in 2005-6 then it is quite unlikely that a fungus that looked the same and was later DNA tested to be the same would have been documented from Europe back in the 80's through present. Fungal infections of bats identical in appearance to GD were documented in Europe at least as far back as the mid 80's. However, in Europe it has not proven to have the same impact as in America. One current and very plausible theory is that GD has already wiped out susceptible european bats long ago and persisted among a remnant population until being introduced to the US. The fact that GD was not described as a species until recently is because that until it starting killing bats en mass in the US nobody particularly CARED about white fungus on bat noses. So far as everything I've seen, the "spread" of GD in europe is a spread of confirming the identity of a fungus already present.

2) GD has indeed exhibited a typical point source spread pattern. I would argue my examples are in fact quite accurate. If we look at the USFWS and media we see a "WNS spread by humans is probable and in fact quite likely and backed up by internal studies people wont publish" approach. If we look at brian C and those like him we see "WNS cant be spread by people, it is in fact impossible, and so we shouldn't even mention it". I postulated that "WNS human spread is possible, but totally unsupported in the real world, and thus very unlikely" (i.e. $2.00/gal gas).

It certainly isn't any stretch of the imagination to imagine humans as vectors and GD spores being transported by people and other animal vectors. The problem is you MUST use your imagination because there is ZERO data to support the supposition that that actually happens.

The main problem is that people equate transporting spores with being a vector. Wrong. To be a vector you have to transport viable spores to a viable habitat where they can then grow and infect a viable host. We have collected spores from cave gear immediately after exiting a cave when the purpose of the trip was to sample for spores upon exit. That doesn't even make us vectors of spores from one site to the next...let alone vectors of GD.


I'm not convinced that we would know if g. destructans was here prior to the mortalities in 2005-2006. With the millions of bats hibernating in thousands of caves would anyone notice a bit of white fluff here and there? And you can in no way make the jump from white fungal growths on European bats in the 1980s to WNS in the 21st century unless someone saved some of the fungus to culture and test today. Given the problems they seem to be having with testing for this fungus I'm not sure if even that would work.
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