Trusting Others?

[3days]

Hello, I am needing some advice on safty. I was training (rock climbing) at the gym last night and several guys came in and practiced ascending and descending techniques. I talked to them and found out they were enthusiastic cavers. I have wondered if I would like caving, it even crossed my mind this week, so when they invited me to go I said sure!
So hear is my question: How much do I trust these guys to lead me into a cave and how can I screen their competency. Any advice is appreciated.

Thanks! -Russ

[wendy]

I'd ask if they are NSS members and if they belong to a grotto. While not all great cavers are in the NSS or members of grottos, its a start. Also if they go in acting like idiots and you get an uneasy feeling, just tell them you aren't comfortable and want to turn aorund and exit. If they are good buddies they will exit with you, at least one of them will go with you to make sure you exit the cave ok. At least that's what I would do if i was taking someone caving.

Where are you located? Maybe we can help find you some cavers in your area that we all know.

[dsundergroundm]

I would have to whole heartedly agree with wendy. Ask a few questions, maybe asking about past caving trips they have done (if there is alot of stupidity in their past trips be wary). After that all you can do is follow your gut.

[killian]

I also agree, but personally i would try to bring a friend even if you feel they are competent. That way you have somebody else that you know to hang with and if they start acting stupid and you think you should head out of the cave you now have some one that can back you up.. That's just me..
Killian nss# 58343

[Ralph E. Powers]

I would have to whole heartedly agree with wendy. Ask a few questions, maybe asking about past caving trips they have done (if there is alot of stupidity in their past trips be wary). After that all you can do is follow your gut.

Well, unless 3 Days is familar with caves and caving techniques to begin with those guys can make up whatever trips they've been on and he wouldn't know the difference right? I met a guy who said he'd been to Lech, Mammoth and a few caves abroad and for a while folks believed him. Then it turned out that he was full of it... totally full of it. Once he started caving with us (or trying to cave) it became quickly evident that he gleaned most of his knowledge from reading and not actually doing.

It is sometimes difficult to know who knows what and if they really know what they're doing unless they show you up front. If 3 Day was watching those guys doing all the SRT and they didn't fall or have problems (changing over and so on) then it's probable that they were indeed cavers. No, you don't have to be an NSS/Grotto member to be a great or even a good caver but it does lend weight to whatever you're saying that you do. At least for those who are in the know.

For sure... take the long route and find the nearest grotto to you and go check them out. Chances are those guys will be there. Even if they're not they've either skipped that meeting or just aren't members. At least at your first grotto meeting you'll meet people you should be able to trust.

Start slow and work your way up. I get appalled at hearing stories about how this or that cave (Ellisons for one) is someone's FIRST vertical cave. I mean c'mon!

[3days]

Great advice, thanks! I wouldn't do a vertical cave with these guys yet. They were at the gym practicing while on belay to stay safe until they learn the technique better. They did mention a group of people going last trip so I'm guessing they are a part of a grotto.

[3days]

I realize that I really didn't introduce myself.

My name is Russ. And stories are fun. I would wedge myself between the hay in our barn loft when I was younger . A bottom row of hay, the end of the next row, and the roof. I would crawl to the back of the barn, 50 ft maybe. Not being able to turn around I would crawl backwards back out. So years later this is not just a memory but somewhat of a technique that I use under houses in my profession, and strangely it's still fun.

No I am not a caver although I have went into them with a friend or two on several occasions . Only one that was in behind Jim Bean distillery have I actually pushed myself on. Not knowing safety limitations I got that "gut feeling" and turned back after several hundred feet.

I live about 20 min. south of Louisville, Kentucky. Caving is something my wife and I have both talked about doing, although neither of us new that there were groups of people who meet for such things. A misconception that a person had to be a "professionals" to be a caver. Info on a grotto would be great. I have great respect for people who push themselves for epic fun and not for image. Thanks!

[bill fish]

Hi Russ...

if you end up like caving...i dont think you'll believe how exciting it can be....and I dont mean the danger/adrenline rush kind of exicting...I mean the mental kind...sorta like solving a murder mystery...or hunting for buried treasure....or opening a really old chest you found in the basement...the lure of whats around the next corner....whats past that squeeze thats blowing air....

And as you alluded too...you can't really be caver and show off to the general public..by definition its a pretty low profile sport....and most cavers have a low tolerance for the "look at big bad me" types as well....

You mentioned rock climbing....dont make the mistake of assuming that whats good for rock climbing is good for caving...not saying one is better or harder...just different sports with often surprisingly different goals and environments...

One thing I'd look out for is drug/alchohol use during caving...some cavers do that....and some that do SHOULD know better...it not a rampant problem....but its not extremely rare either...

Just let em know right off the bat that its not your thing and you dont want to be around that in a cave....not good for the cave, cave owner relations, or you own safety for that matter...

As for "trusting" these guys...as other have said...contact your local grotto....they are probably members...and even if they arent...the grotto will probably know them and can give you a heads up as to whether they kinda know what they are doing and are "okay" for leading novices...or are a bunch of renegade yahoos without a clue...and often grottos have dedicated trips for beginners, people to lead the trips, and often gear to borrow as well until you decide you like this caving thing and can get your own gear...



Once you find someone who "feels to you" like they know what they are doing...you do have to trust em to some extent...

Lets take what most people are afraid of caving wise...

falling rocks/cave collapsing....dont worry about it...unless your talking vertical caving..but then again dont go banging on the ceiling either

getting lost....if they are taking you to a beginner cave...again dont worry..just make SURE someone who ISNT going on the trip knows exactly which cave you are going to and where its at and when to expect you back...and on the rare chance you get lost or stuck...just wait it out...help will arrive...

being attacked by bats/rabies...again nothing to worry about...just dont bother or handle these little guys and you'll be fine....

the darkness...creeps some out...again don't worry it aint gonna hurt you...its a mental thing....

tight spaces...again nothing inherently dangerous...mostly a mental thing..

Now, at some point they may take you somewhere tight....and you kinda have to trust em if they say you will fit.....just make sure someone experienced on the trip BIGGER than you goes through first....if they fit...so will you..and its usually not so much gut size thats an issue...fats compressable/movable....it more shoulder size, hip size, chest size, and leg lengths...

And make sure someone experienced goes through the tight spot first...and that another experienced person is behind you...that way you've got experienced help on both sides should you have any trouble...

Climbing...thats where the most real risk probably is.....cave rocks are often very slick and muddy...and will often break off in you hand! Not at all like outdoor climbing....if the climb is high enough to get you hurt...you really need to belayed...unfortunately this requires alot of situational judgement...

If they ask you do anything you really dont feel comfortable doing....dont bow into any pressuring...if they do pressure you...you arent with the right folks...of course its often hard to tell pressure from calm, honest, realistic assurance that somethings safe or that you can do it...

If it just feels like you are along for the trip you arent with the right folks...you should feel that they are trying to teach you and look after you from the moment you start getting your gear together to the moment you get back to the cars...and every moment in between...because thats what a beginner really needs and deserves.........

well...hope that helps some

Blll

[wendy]

I realize that I really didn't introduce myself.

My name is Russ. And stories are fun. I would wedge myself between the hay in our barn loft when I was younger . A bottom row of hay, the end of the next row, and the roof. I would crawl to the back of the barn, 50 ft maybe. Not being able to turn around I would crawl backwards back out. So years later this is not just a memory but somewhat of a technique that I use under houses in my profession, and strangely it's still fun.

No I am not a caver although I have went into them with a friend or two on several occasions . Only one that was in behind Jim Bean distillery have I actually pushed myself on. Not knowing safety limitations I got that "gut feeling" and turned back after several hundred feet.

I live about 20 min. south of Louisville, Kentucky. Caving is something my wife and I have both talked about doing, although neither of us new that there were groups of people who meet for such things. A misconception that a person had to be a "professionals" to be a caver. Info on a grotto would be great. I have great respect for people who push themselves for epic fun and not for image. Thanks!

Russ,

You are in a great area to cave. If you go to caves.org you can do a grotto search by state and find one in your area. I think that would be a good way to get started.

[mgmills]

I live about 20 min. south of Louisville, Kentucky. Caving is something my wife and I have both talked about doing, although neither of us new that there were groups of people who meet for such things. A misconception that a person had to be a "professionals" to be a caver. Info on a grotto would be great. I have great respect for people who push themselves for epic fun and not for image. Thanks!

Check this out for info on grottos

http://www.caves.org/io/grottos.shtml