Cavechat.org

I remember that I really wanted to learn how to survey when I first started going caving. So I bought the On Station book, and to my surprise, it did not actually instruct you how to survey a cave. It tells you the ideas behind surveying, why things are done, etc., but the actual measuring and putting the protractor and pencil to paper? Nope! This most essential part is missing from the book. Even nowadays with computers being used for final drafts, the book is seriously outdated. I would say a caver should avoid getting the book On Station if trying to learn HOW to survey. But if one has just learned how to survey, then it might be worth the time to read up on surveying. Plus you get all the cave symbols and fine examples of maps.

I find it similar to tying a shoe. You could have a book on tying shoes, but when it comes down to actually instructing a person how to tie a shoe... that might be best left for instructing while in person.

You mean "cave survey 101" info like this?

I bought On Station after being introduced to surveying by fellow cavers, so I guess that aspect of the book never really occurred to me. After a couple of years I sold the book to another caver because I really didn't use/need it. But I know other folks find it useful as a reference.

That link you sent me is more in line with what I had in mind when I bought On Station. But it too would need more clarification and explanations added.

On Station is good for a reference!

Matt
I agree with you - when i first picked up On-Station, I too found it lacking actual 'how-to' information. There is a new version coming out soon, and should be greatly updated, however I have not seen it yet.

but there are a few other resources:
There is a great book put out many years ago by the MSS on cave surveying, that I seem to have forgotten the name and author of (I don't have it handy). It has great info on actually putting pencil to paper, in and out of a cave, however the out of cave information is dated as well.

There are a few websites with great information:
http://www.brandonkowallis.com/ Has great info, maps and tutorials
http://www.cavecartography.com My site with a bunch of articles concentrating on survey and drafting(go to survey training)
http://www.cavediggers.com/ A site by Mark Passerby that has a ton of info as well

There are more - a quick search will help you find them

For in cave survey there are resources as well:
- Nothing can help better then finding an experienced surveyor and going with them - find one in your grotto or region
- The Center for Cave and Karst Studies out of WKU put on a cave survey and cartography course every few years - they should be announcing this years courses soon
- There are usually a few offerings at convention each year to help cartographers


Hope this helps
Howard

Thank you Howard! The links you gave will be good references for us. I especially like the Open Data Concept which would be like Open Source Software.

Matt wrote:that might be best left for instructing while in person.

Howard wrote:Nothing can help better then finding an experienced surveyor and going with them

We are fortunate members of SoCal Grotto have visited us several times and wanted to survey some of our caves. We were able to learn the basics and when they saw our interest they left their old surveying equipment (luckily they just upgraded) and the bug to survey caves. So we practiced on our own and managed to work up several data sets. We are now learning how to get the data to look like a map.

We don’t have Illustrator only CorelDraw but we can apply the same procedures from the tutorials.

I just ordered On Station. The book is not here yet, but it's odd that it doesn't go into much "how to" detail. Oh well, I'm sure it will still be an interesting read.

And thanks for the links in this thread. Tons of good info there.

JR-Orion wrote:I just ordered On Station. The book is not here yet, but it's odd that it doesn't go into much "how to" detail. Oh well, I'm sure it will still be an interesting read.

And thanks for the links in this thread. Tons of good info there.

Hey JR,
There are some very active surveyors here in Illinois. In fact we'll be surveying this weekend at Mystery Cave. We'd be happy to each anyone interested and you're welcome to come along on the survey.
Dawn Ryan

The best way to learn how to survey is to go surveying with people who do it a lot and produce maps (the latter is important). Especially if they know what they're doing, like Dawn does!

I had no idea there were such books. I figured the knowledge was passed on from caver to caver.

Chads93GT wrote:I had no idea there were such books. I figured the knowledge was passed on from caver to caver.

Quite frankly it is, and it isn't, passed on. I've been caving 50 years and only in the past 10 years have I wanted to know how to draw up a map.
I know how to pull and read a tape, write down info and sketch, but have no clue how to draw up the map. I've actually requested instruction on drawing
up a cave survey map and it fell on deaf ears. So, it IS NOT necessarily passed on by cavers, unless you are a cartographers "favorite". I requested instruction
from surveyors and they ignored me. Therefore those cavers will not be involved in my next project. Their loss. Books have not been useful either.
Another failure by "organized" cavers.

tncaver wrote:

Chads93GT wrote:I had no idea there were such books. I figured the knowledge was passed on from caver to caver.

Quite frankly it is, and it isn't, passed on. I've been caving 50 years and only in the past 10 years have I wanted to know how to draw up a map.
I know how to pull and read a tape, write down info and sketch, but have no clue how to draw up the map. I've actually requested instruction on drawing
up a cave survey map and it fell on deaf ears. So, it IS NOT necessarily passed on by cavers, unless you are a cartographers "favorite". I requested instruction
from surveyors and they ignored me. Therefore those cavers will not be involved in my next project. Their loss. Books have not been useful either.
Another failure by "organized" cavers.

Oh suck man. I have yet to learn to map either, but then again i don't have any projects of my OWN going on, nor my own computer (company supplies my lap top) nor the desire right now to draw maps. I do book when surveying, thats good enough for me. I sort of know what the map will look like before anyone else, when I am the one sketching, lol.

I do know there are websites with tutorials out there, if you use adobe illustrator to sketch, and use ............ walls, or whatever program for the plot line. Sounds to me like you have some real sour apples in your area.

Quite frankly it is, and it isn't, passed on. I've been caving 50 years and only in the past 10 years have I wanted to know how to draw up a map.
I know how to pull and read a tape, write down info and sketch, but have no clue how to draw up the map. I've actually requested instruction on drawing
up a cave survey map and it fell on deaf ears. So, it IS NOT necessarily passed on by cavers, unless you are a cartographers "favorite". I requested instruction
from surveyors and they ignored me. Therefore those cavers will not be involved in my next project. Their loss. Books have not been useful either.
Another failure by "organized" cavers.

Cartography(the actual drawing of the map) is a LOT like caving. If you want to do it...you will. If you don't.................

I know Jeff Barlett has posted links several times to this forum, to a web site that has a video tutorial on making cave maps from scratch. Even though I had made a dozen or so digital maps, I watched the video so I could learn Adobe Illustrator. Also there are links in this forum to Mark Passerby Website that has a wealth of digital drafting tutorials. That being said, do your first map on paper, Ink it too. Learn the old ways because the underlying processes are the same. The digital realm just speeds things up a bit. Well for some, I'm slower drawing digitally than I am with pen and paper, sans lettering.

Dawn Ryan wrote:

JR-Orion wrote:I just ordered On Station. The book is not here yet, but it's odd that it doesn't go into much "how to" detail. Oh well, I'm sure it will still be an interesting read.

And thanks for the links in this thread. Tons of good info there.

Hey JR,
There are some very active surveyors here in Illinois. In fact we'll be surveying this weekend at Mystery Cave. We'd be happy to each anyone interested and you're welcome to come along on the survey.
Dawn Ryan

Wow, that's good to know. Looks like I missed that trip, but I would really like to come along next time. Mostly due to my location in NW Illinois, I've only been through Maquoketa Caves, Skull Cave (Sherman Park, IA), and a few small caves at Camp Wyoming, IA. But I'd like to get out more often, that's for sure.

I just googled: how to draw a map of a cave
and found dozens of sites explaining the process.

See, another success of organized cavers.