On Station - learning how to survey

Techniques, equipment and issues. Also visit the NSS Survey & Cartography Section.

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Re: On Station - learning how to survey

Postby George Dasher » Jan 22, 2010 8:50 am

The bottom line (for right now) is that I have to get that new InDesign software, install it, and see if I can use it.

And I need to calm down--this is really stressing me out.

The good news is that I got InDesign at the non-profit cost. Which makes sense, since I am only working for three 501-3-c organizations.

Anyway, InDesign is en route to me.
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Re: On Station - learning how to survey

Postby Leitmotiv » Jan 23, 2010 10:18 pm

InDesign files should work great for shipping off to the printer. I bet all they'll need is a postscript file. I would imagine that WP is accepted very little at printers.

I don't know the full extent of your problem, but it sounds like you need to retake some pictures in higher resolution (more dpi). And if you can't get photos for the particular places (caves) you want, you should consider alternative photos.
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Re: On Station - learning how to survey

Postby George Dasher » Jan 24, 2010 2:47 pm

Why would Word Perfect be accepted at few printers? From the printer's point of view, it is just a word-processing software, just like Word. I've had no problem at all with Word Perfect working with any printer.

It is difficult to replace pictures when you have to rent a plane, backpack to the cave, the individual (who provided the picture) has died, or the caves are closed because of WNS. This is more of a problem with the Grant County WVASS Bulletin than with On Station Two, but, unfortunately, all of these four items have occurred. For that reason, I think working with my current pictures is the easier option. I am just going to have to do the best I can.
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Re: On Station - learning how to survey

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Jan 24, 2010 7:43 pm

George Dasher wrote:Why would Word Perfect be accepted at few printers? From the printer's point of view, it is just a word-processing software, just like Word.

Part 1: because, outside the legal profession, almost no one uses WordPerfect anymore. It's extremely uncommon. It also doesn't integrate with PDF particularly well (X4, the newest version, is proudly advertised as the first PDF-compatible edition), and it's especially bad when one is trying to export anything to Quark or InDesign. I spend most of my workday wrestling wordperfect files (from law clerks) into Dreamweaver and InDesign, and neither is painless or efficient. Wordperfect's code is messy and weird, to the extent that it's even difficult to transfer items from it to other word processing programs. It is easily the worst possible choice to lay out a book. No offense intended.

Part 2: Because printers don't work with word processing software, they work with either layout software (Quark, InDesign) or the output (usually PDF) from this software. The Microsoft equivalent -- which is unabashedly terrible -- would be Publisher. If you send Word files to your printer, you're sending them the raw data, not a finished product. If you haven't had problems, it's because the printer is doing the prepress layout/conversion for you. My previous employment was with a mid-size magazine publisher who did smaller one-off jobs on the side, and the one-off jobs were always a nightmare because we had people sending us Word files that always had overprint problems, bleed problems, "built" black problems, colorspace issues, text reflow and font replacement... among other things. If someone sent in a WordPerfect file, we wouldn't have known what to do with it, not to mention that I dont' think WordPerfect even exists in a Mac variant (though I could be mistaken).
"Although it pains me to say it, in this case Jeff is right. Plan accordingly." --Andy Armstrong
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Re: On Station - learning how to survey

Postby Scott McCrea » Jan 24, 2010 8:26 pm

I asked my wife, supervisor of the pre-press dept at a commercial printer, if they would print a book submitted as a WP file. She chuckled. They could do it, but it would be very expensive. They would basically have to re-layout the entire book in InDesign.
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Re: On Station - learning how to survey

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Jan 24, 2010 10:52 pm

George, here is my question:

Why are you the one who is sending a file to a printer? You are the book's author, not a graphic designer. It makes sense for you to be working in a word processing program, because your job is to create the content, not the end result. A typical workflow is Author > Designer > Printer. Why would the publisher (the NSS, no?) expect you to do the layout and/or graphic design yourself when someone obviously did it for you for the book's first edition, and you admittedly don't know the first thing about how to lay out a publication?

It seems to me that, even if you are able to teach yourself InDesign handily, a live file produced by a first-timer is going to be obviously inferior to a live file produced by a professional. You either need to hire someone experienced in laying out books, or you need to arrange for the printer to have the layout & prepress done in-house. Both of these options will cost a bunch of money.
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Re: On Station - learning how to survey

Postby George Dasher » Jan 25, 2010 12:16 pm

I've NEVER had any problem with Word Perfect, and I did the 2000 Guidebook and the 2001 Pend County book in it--plus I always do The West Virginia Caver in it. I also re-did the geology chapter for the Grant County book in it last night, and didn't really have any troubles--although it does stuggle with a lot of pictures (which I had).

It is a shame that no one uses it any more, because Word REALLY REALLY REALLY stinks, particularly the way it handles pictures and captions.

Still waiting on InDesign to arrive, and I tried to load some more RAM onto my computer last night. That didn't work, the RAM didn't fit. Back to the computer place.
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Re: On Station - learning how to survey

Postby Leitmotiv » Jan 25, 2010 12:19 pm

George may be trying to save money by doing the layout himself. That's what I'm doing for my book.

And to distill what was said earlier about WP not being accepted at printers anymore: WordPerfect is just a text program. It does not do layouts. Layouts are handled by Quark and InDesign (I use both). A printer needs a layout to make a book. Unless you don't have any pictures that is, even then you need someone to make headers, subheaders, page numbers, content pages, indexes, etc.

Also, why do you need specific caves in the survey book? This book is about surveying in general, right? Not about surveying in particular caves. I don't know exactly what your book is doing with those hard to get cave pictures and what necessitates their inclusion, but perhaps you can recreate the scene in a different cave. No one should know the difference, and if they do, it shouldn't detract from the content of the book. That being to teach surveying skills.

If you have all the text finished then all you need to do is replace the photos with higher dpi versions. That means reshoots. Once you have the pictures you need, it's only a simple (or time consuming) matter of doing the layout in inDesign, saving it to PDF or postscript, and then shipping it off to the printer.

If you have trouble learning inDesign, perhaps you should seek out a class a local community college. If you live near one, you can probably take a class on inDesign for one semester and it should get you the skills you need to finish your book, or at least a major contact with the teacher in case you need help later down the road.
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Re: On Station - learning how to survey

Postby Leitmotiv » Jan 25, 2010 12:22 pm

Maybe a phone call to your printer (is it the NSS?) will clear up some issues on what you need. Perhaps they are accepting your WP files and reworking them? Might be good to find out how they are working with your WP files.
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Re: On Station - learning how to survey

Postby George Dasher » Jan 25, 2010 2:08 pm

The pictures of the individual caves are for the Grant County Bulletin, not for On Station Two. I said this I think...

WP does layout fine, until you load it up with a bunch of big-file pictures.

The InDesign classes cost major money (which I can't afford). And I found none being offered in the Charleston area.
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Way Off Topic

Postby driggs » Jan 25, 2010 5:17 pm

Moderators, perhaps you could move this conversation on the status of On Station Two to a dedicated thread of its own?
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Re: On Station - learning how to survey

Postby Edward7 » Sep 19, 2011 8:01 am

HKalnitz wrote:Matt
I agree with you - when i first picked up On-Station, I too found it lacking actual 'how-to' information. There is a new version coming out soon, and should be greatly updated, however I have not seen it yet.

but there are a few other resources:
There is a great book put out many years ago by the MSS on cave surveying, that I seem to have forgotten the name and author of (I don't have it handy). It has great info on actually putting pencil to paper, in and out of a cave, however the out of cave information is dated as well.

There are a few websites with great information:
http://www.brandonkowallis.com/ Has great info, maps and tutorials
http://www.cavecartography.com My site with a bunch of articles concentrating on survey and drafting(go to survey training)
http://www.cavediggers.com/ A site by Mark Passerby that has a ton of info as well

There are more - a quick search will help you find them

For in cave survey there are resources as well:
- Nothing can help better then finding an experienced surveyor and going with them - find one in your grotto or region
- The Center for Cave and Karst Studies out of WKU put on a cave survey and cartography course every few years - they should be announcing this years courses soon
- There are usually a few offerings at convention each year to help cartographers


Hope this helps
Howard




THanks , theSe linKs arE veRy goOd , i uSe corEl drAw 9 fOr 3D modElIng anD ofTen lOok foR tuTorIal vidEos, i foUnd yoUr poSt helPfuL. ThanKs .
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