SVG Roundtripping with Walls & Illustrator

Techniques, equipment and issues. Also visit the NSS Survey & Cartography Section.

Moderator: Moderators

SVG Roundtripping with Walls & Illustrator

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Jul 6, 2009 1:57 pm

Tried to write an overview from a first-person perspective in grotto newsletter.

Available here:
http://caves.org/grotto/lrg/pdf/SVG_roundtripping.pdf
"Although it pains me to say it, in this case Jeff is right. Plan accordingly." --Andy Armstrong
User avatar
Jeff Bartlett
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 948
Joined: Jun 29, 2007 12:19 am
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Name: Jeff Bartlett
NSS #: 59325
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Tennessee Cave Survey
  

Re: SVG Roundtripping with Walls & Illustrator

Postby rchrds » Jul 6, 2009 9:49 pm

Jeff- you seem to be one of the few with great success at walls- perhaps you can answer a question- I have walls v2 B8 on two machines- one running XP, one running Windows7- when I try to open a walls file written on either of the other machines (saved on an external hard drive), it wont open saying: "unable to read from <file name> it is opened by someone else." Any suggestions? I'm guessing that it is a permissions issue, but I dont seem to have problems with other file types. And no, it is not set as read-only (as far as the basic properties allow)

Also- is there any sort of Walls Forum, where people come together to ask questions? I can seem to log into the ICDS pages latey.

Thanks!

Jason
User avatar
rchrds
Prolific Poster
 
Posts: 196
Joined: Sep 6, 2005 8:54 pm
Location: Fayetteville, NC
Name: Jason Richards
NSS #: 41539
Primary Grotto Affiliation: None at the moment
  

Re: SVG Roundtripping with Walls & Illustrator

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Jul 7, 2009 9:22 am

rchrds wrote:"unable to read from <file name> it is opened by someone else."


Not sure, I'd email David McKenzie. I keep all my walls data on an external hard drive as well, and use it frequently from two computers (one XP, one Vista64) and occasionally a third (Vista32) without issue. Make sure you're using the "remove hardware" option before you disconnect the drive, but other than that I'm drawing a blank.
"Although it pains me to say it, in this case Jeff is right. Plan accordingly." --Andy Armstrong
User avatar
Jeff Bartlett
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 948
Joined: Jun 29, 2007 12:19 am
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Name: Jeff Bartlett
NSS #: 59325
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Tennessee Cave Survey
  

Re: SVG Roundtripping with Walls & Illustrator

Postby rchrds » Jul 11, 2009 1:39 am

xcathodex wrote:
rchrds wrote:"unable to read from <file name> it is opened by someone else."


Not sure, I'd email David McKenzie. I keep all my walls data on an external hard drive as well, and use it frequently from two computers (one XP, one Vista64) and occasionally a third (Vista32) without issue. Make sure you're using the "remove hardware" option before you disconnect the drive, but other than that I'm drawing a blank.


Found the answer- it has to do with Windows7- when you use the default install account you are a user, though you have administrator priviledges, regardless, when you attach an external drive, you do not automatically have permissions to edit files- you must set the permissions on the external drive so that your username has full access to edit files. This causes the message above in walls, as well as more obvious messages telling you that files are read-only, despite them not being read-only in the properties box in other programs, such as Illustrator, Xcell, etc. Hope this helps as people slowly migrate to Windows 7.

Jason
User avatar
rchrds
Prolific Poster
 
Posts: 196
Joined: Sep 6, 2005 8:54 pm
Location: Fayetteville, NC
Name: Jason Richards
NSS #: 41539
Primary Grotto Affiliation: None at the moment
  

Re: SVG Roundtripping with Walls & Illustrator

Postby Footleg » Jul 17, 2009 7:31 am

xcathodex wrote:Tried to write an overview from a first-person perspective in grotto newsletter.

Available here:
http://caves.org/grotto/lrg/pdf/SVG_roundtripping.pdf


Just finished reading that. An excellent article which has given me a detailed understanding of the SVG Roundtripping process. What is also made me realise is just how much more sophisticated the error correction/sketch distorting capabilities of my preferred cave drawing program are (Tunnel: http://www.freesteel.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Tunnel ). The fundamental difference of the approach in Walls vs Tunnel is that Walls associates the sketch to the survey centerline by proximity on the sketch (as far as I understand it), where as in Tunnel you actually attach the cave passage to the centerline in the drawing. What this means is that when one passage overlaying another is moved in Tunnel, it only takes that passage with it, and leaves other passages alone. So the minimum amount of fixing is required after loop closures or error correction even in complex multi-level caves.

I'm at the ICS in Texas all next week, so if anyone there wants a demo, just track me down. I'm presenting at the photography workshop on Tuesday (which unfortunately clashes with the Cartographic Technology session). Or leave a message for me at reception, or just look out for the British guy with 'Footleg' on his name badge.
User avatar
Footleg
Frequent Poster
 
Posts: 65
Joined: May 15, 2009 8:03 am
  

Re: SVG Roundtripping with Walls & Illustrator

Postby rchrds » Jul 20, 2009 12:53 am

Thanks, your article answered the question I have been waiting to ask for a couple of days: How to get the illustrator drawing back into Walls (which isn't really covered in the help file) and then what to do with it. I will be trying it this week- have yet another large cave map that has to be started and drafted... Sigh.
User avatar
rchrds
Prolific Poster
 
Posts: 196
Joined: Sep 6, 2005 8:54 pm
Location: Fayetteville, NC
Name: Jason Richards
NSS #: 41539
Primary Grotto Affiliation: None at the moment
  

Re: SVG Roundtripping with Walls & Illustrator

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Jul 20, 2009 1:28 pm

Footleg wrote:What is also made me realise is just how much more sophisticated the error correction/sketch distorting capabilities of my preferred cave drawing program are (Tunnel: http://www.freesteel.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Tunnel ). The fundamental difference of the approach in Walls vs Tunnel is that Walls associates the sketch to the survey centerline by proximity on the sketch (as far as I understand it), where as in Tunnel you actually attach the cave passage to the centerline in the drawing. What this means is that when one passage overlaying another is moved in Tunnel, it only takes that passage with it, and leaves other passages alone. So the minimum amount of fixing is required after loop closures or error correction even in complex multi-level caves.

I agree that the primary shortcoming of the Walls roundtripping workflow is its complete inability to understand passage on different levels. While I'm not looking to switch, and use Walls specifically for sake of data-management compliance with several projects, I would be somewhat tempted to make a change to another program as my primary data reduction software if a "competing" product has cleared this hurdle before Walls.

However, I also believe the technique Tunnel uses is relatively incompatible with the MSS/CRF technique of showing lots of detail in the plan view. I am speaking from a second-hand description of the program, so I may be off-base, but am I correct in my understanding that, in Tunnel, you connect not only the relevant walls but the plan view details to the centerline as well? With, say, a 0pt line in Illustrator or whatever drawing program is being used? It seems to me that in a modern, detailed cave map this would require quite a few lines, it would be very easy to miss lines, and this might end up being a significant amount of extra work.

For instance, here is one of the examples I used in the roundtripping article linked above (with all cross-sections, place names, and underlying passage removed for sake of simplifying the example; this passage is approximately 40 feet wide). How would Tunnel address this style of drafting? Are we talking about hundreds and hundreds of reference lines? I wouldn't be able to utilize it on this project, anyway, but am of course interested.

Image
"Although it pains me to say it, in this case Jeff is right. Plan accordingly." --Andy Armstrong
User avatar
Jeff Bartlett
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 948
Joined: Jun 29, 2007 12:19 am
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Name: Jeff Bartlett
NSS #: 59325
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Tennessee Cave Survey
  

Re: SVG Roundtripping with Walls & Illustrator

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Jul 20, 2009 1:32 pm

rchrds wrote:Thanks, your article answered the question I have been waiting to ask for a couple of days: How to get the illustrator drawing back into Walls (which isn't really covered in the help file) and then what to do with it. I will be trying it this week- have yet another large cave map that has to be started and drafted... Sigh.

Well, let's celebrate the fact that we CAN start some of these now. You can only draft 'em up one (or three) at a time, right? If I can be of any help with the process, feel free to shoot me a PM.

:bananabat:
"Although it pains me to say it, in this case Jeff is right. Plan accordingly." --Andy Armstrong
User avatar
Jeff Bartlett
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 948
Joined: Jun 29, 2007 12:19 am
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Name: Jeff Bartlett
NSS #: 59325
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Tennessee Cave Survey
  

Re: SVG Roundtripping with Walls & Illustrator

Postby rchrds » Jul 20, 2009 3:37 pm

xcathodex wrote:
rchrds wrote:Thanks, your article answered the question I have been waiting to ask for a couple of days: How to get the illustrator drawing back into Walls (which isn't really covered in the help file) and then what to do with it. I will be trying it this week- have yet another large cave map that has to be started and drafted... Sigh.

Well, let's celebrate the fact that we CAN start some of these now. You can only draft 'em up one (or three) at a time, right? If I can be of any help with the process, feel free to shoot me a PM.

:bananabat:


Well, some have been started before in other formats (some even hand drawn) so it is getting a little old, but the one I am most interested in has a new loop almost every day of survey, so it will be a continous bit of round-tripping. I will most certainly be coming with more questions - thanks for the offer.

Jason
User avatar
rchrds
Prolific Poster
 
Posts: 196
Joined: Sep 6, 2005 8:54 pm
Location: Fayetteville, NC
Name: Jason Richards
NSS #: 41539
Primary Grotto Affiliation: None at the moment
  

Re: SVG Roundtripping with Walls & Illustrator

Postby Footleg » Jul 28, 2009 9:18 am

xcathodex wrote:I am speaking from a second-hand description of the program, so I may be off-base, but am I correct in my understanding that, in Tunnel, you connect not only the relevant walls but the plan view details to the centerline as well? With, say, a 0pt line in Illustrator or whatever drawing program is being used? It seems to me that in a modern, detailed cave map this would require quite a few lines, it would be very easy to miss lines, and this might end up being a significant amount of extra work.

For instance, here is one of the examples I used in the roundtripping article linked above (with all cross-sections, place names, and underlying passage removed for sake of simplifying the example; this passage is approximately 40 feet wide). How would Tunnel address this style of drafting? Are we talking about hundreds and hundreds of reference lines? I wouldn't be able to utilize it on this project, anyway, but am of course interested.


The way Tunnel works is that your drawing defines areas, which contain symbols (either individual or fills). As long as your areas are connected to the centreline backbone then everything (symbols and lines) is moved relative to the area. So you only need to connect each survey station to the walls of the passage the station is in (usually a couple of connective lines is sufficient). The areas are then associated with that station. Adjacent areas will be moved relative to the connected area. Each area is also given an elevation by association with the nearest connected survey station (i.e. either connected directly in the area, or by adjacent areas). This is how the program determines which passage to show on top of the others.
User avatar
Footleg
Frequent Poster
 
Posts: 65
Joined: May 15, 2009 8:03 am
  

Re: SVG Roundtripping with Walls & Illustrator

Postby Martin Sluka » Jul 29, 2009 2:05 am

xcathodex wrote:For instance, here is one of the examples I used in the roundtripping article linked above (with all cross-sections, place names, and underlying passage removed for sake of simplifying the example; this passage is approximately 40 feet wide). How would Tunnel address this style of drafting? Are we talking about hundreds and hundreds of reference lines? I wouldn't be able to utilize it on this project, anyway, but am of course interested.


BTW - no problem for therion: you may export overall map only with walls and atlas with all details of particular passage (and many more).
User avatar
Martin Sluka
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 383
Joined: Mar 17, 2006 11:28 am
Location: Prague, Czech Republic
Name: Martin Sluka
NSS #: 29010
  

Re: SVG Roundtripping with Walls & Illustrator

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Jul 29, 2009 9:34 am

sluka wrote:BTW - no problem for therion: you may export overall map only with walls and atlas with all details of particular passage (and many more).


Recently, I have experimented fairly extensively with Therion and find it to be, without a doubt, the least user-friendly program I have ever tried. In fact, I find it so frustrating that I have abandoned using it for my intended purpose (morphing poorly-plotted sketches) and am instead using Carto. I would rather eat a bowl full of chert cobble than spend much more time working with it.

While Therion is certainly a good concept and does some things very well, the process involved in doing them needs improvement. It is counter-intuitive and maddening, and I consider it several generations away from being something cavers (the ones who aren't software developers, anyway) will adopt widely.

Also, I just lost $5 in the "when will Martin Sluka post in this thread claiming that Therion will cure all cartographic issues and/or cure erectile dysfunction" pool. I had you down for 7 days, but it took 22 days. You're slacking off on us, man!

:big grin:
"Although it pains me to say it, in this case Jeff is right. Plan accordingly." --Andy Armstrong
User avatar
Jeff Bartlett
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 948
Joined: Jun 29, 2007 12:19 am
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Name: Jeff Bartlett
NSS #: 59325
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Tennessee Cave Survey
  

Re: SVG Roundtripping with Walls & Illustrator

Postby Martin Sluka » Jul 29, 2009 10:12 am

xcathodex wrote: Recently, I have experimented fairly extensively with Therion and find it to be, without a doubt, the least user-friendly program I have ever tried. In fact, I find it so frustrating that I have abandoned using it for my intended purpose (morphing poorly-plotted sketches) and am instead using Carto. I would rather eat a bowl full of chert cobble than spend much more time working with it.


You would be right if there aren't several (I apologize) not young men using therion too. :)

xcathodex wrote: While Therion is certainly a good concept and does some things very well, the process involved in doing them needs improvement. It is counter-intuitive and maddening, and I consider it several generations away from being something cavers (the ones who aren't software developers, anyway) will adopt widely.


Check examples page on therion wiki. Do you think those projects there are only jokes? :wink: http://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/doku.php?id=proj

xcathodex wrote: Also, I just lost $5 in the "when will Martin Sluka post in this thread claiming that Therion will cure all cartographic issues and/or cure erectile dysfunction" pool. I had you down for 7 days, but it took 22 days. You're slacking off on us, man!
:kewl:

I promise you, I'll will write more often here. But I'm not 100% sure it will "cure erectile dysfunction" :grin:

Seriously, have you wrote to therion conference? There are people able to help you, I'm sure.
User avatar
Martin Sluka
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 383
Joined: Mar 17, 2006 11:28 am
Location: Prague, Czech Republic
Name: Martin Sluka
NSS #: 29010
  

Re: SVG Roundtripping with Walls & Illustrator

Postby rchrds » Aug 17, 2009 12:11 pm

Xcathodex- another round-tripping problem-

I exported to SVG my first day of survey and drew it up in Illustrator.
Next I added my second day of survey in walls. It looks all correct at the Walls level, (i.e. day one and day two draw correctly at the show map command.

So next, I exported the merged file to SVG, including my Illustrator SVGZ and this is the message that Walls gives me:
---------------------------------------------------
Successfully created SVG with merged content:
E:\CaveDocs\Survey\Tennessee\Darnells\Walls\Darnells17AUG09_2.svgz

A feature adjustment was required since a station's coordinate changed
by 4041512.00 meters.
Total path length of Walls layer 660 m (2129 pts)
Total path length of Detail layer: 2947 m (24302 pts)
------------------------------------------------------------

Ok- what the hell? 4 million meters? I only have one point in common, the joining station between the two survey days- how did this happen? I can only assume that it is assuming a different location on the planet for the second survey day. The curious part is that when I view the merged SVGZ with Walls2D it shows my day one sketch with my day two survey, but I cant see it in Illustrator.

My first guess is that I have somehow screwed up a fix command, but upon your recommendation I have moved all of my fix commands to a separate file, outside of each day of survey, rather than entering them in the survey days where they might appear, resulting in a structure like this:

Project
fix branch
Day 1 Book
Survey Day one
Day 2 Book
Survey Day two

Thanks!

Jason
User avatar
rchrds
Prolific Poster
 
Posts: 196
Joined: Sep 6, 2005 8:54 pm
Location: Fayetteville, NC
Name: Jason Richards
NSS #: 41539
Primary Grotto Affiliation: None at the moment
  

Re: SVG Roundtripping with Walls & Illustrator

Postby rchrds » Aug 17, 2009 12:21 pm

Curiously enough, if I remove my fix file from the project, the exported SVGZ works in Illustrator, and the export message tells me that no stations were adjusted. So what is going on with the fix files? Here is mine:

;Darnells and Cooper Creek Cave
;Fix Locations

#units meters order=NEU

#fix 0DATUM Nxx:xx:xx.x Wxx:xx:xx.x xxxf (R1,R1)
;Main Darnells Entrance
;O Datum: Highest point on two slabs piled in boulder below drip line

obviously I removed the actual numbers to comply with the list. Anybody see any formatting errors? Currently, there is only one fix in the system, as I have not added the rest of the survey which contains multiple other entrances. So I am not understanding how one day of survey with an external fix is causing a huge movement on a second day of survey with no fix station.

Jason
User avatar
rchrds
Prolific Poster
 
Posts: 196
Joined: Sep 6, 2005 8:54 pm
Location: Fayetteville, NC
Name: Jason Richards
NSS #: 41539
Primary Grotto Affiliation: None at the moment
  

Next

Return to Survey and Cartography Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users