Cave survey programs that adjust features

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Re: Cave survey programs that adjust features

Postby Footleg » Jun 5, 2009 8:49 am

Stan Allison wrote:So my question to Therion and Survex/Tunnel users is do these programs actually adjust the cave map based on the actual survey line or just the nearest survey station/line as in Walls/Illustrator? Will they also work for profiles? Walls/Illustrator will only roundtrip plan views at this point.


In the Survex/Tunnel workflow, you use Survex to manage your survey data (centreline plus passage width/height data). This produces a 3D model of the survey line. Tunnel is the drawing program which the final map is created with. It understands that the centreline is positioned in 3D, so when drawing passage features you attach them to the centreline for that passage. Tunnel can then determine the elevation of that passage, and correctly position overlapping passages above or below it as appropriate. Any morphing of the map only takes into account the position of survey stations for the survey in that passage. So levels above or below a level that is moved will not be affected. To make it easier to draw passages where there are other overlapping passages there are options to hide any details which are not at a similar elevation to the part of the cave you are working on. Alternatively, you can draw up a passage in a separate sketch containing just the centreline for that passage, and then import this into the master sketch later.

Finally when rendering the map you can set styles for named areas of the sketch, allowing you to render different parts of the cave semi-invisible to show detail in other layers. You can apply different styles to the same sketch, rendering two versions of it in the same master drawing in order to show the detail at different levels. See this example as it is easier to show that describe!

http://www.darkgem.com/wscc/matienzo/map/sitesmap.htm?lat=43.33593&lon=-3.56422&zoom=19
(Ignore the rotation of the box around the inset area where the upper levels are made less visible. This was due to a quick and dirty skewing of the renderer map in photoshop to make the cave fit a different North reference. I'll fix it up properly at some point.)

Unfortunately Tunnel does not yet support elevation sketches, but they should be being added in due course.
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Re: Cave survey programs that adjust features

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Jun 5, 2009 1:32 pm

HOW MIGHT I ARRANGE A TRIP TO COME VISIT THE "SHITTY MUDDY CHAMBER" DEPICTED ON THAT MAP?
IT SOUNDS WONDERFUL
"Although it pains me to say it, in this case Jeff is right. Plan accordingly." --Andy Armstrong
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Re: Cave survey programs that adjust features

Postby Spike » Jun 5, 2009 5:03 pm

Interestingly, one could also use these features out of the cave in conjunction with scanned survey notes to draft a cave map.


This is what Jeff, Stan, and myself are currently doing, unlike what Mark is doing with Zicafoose Blowhole, roundtripping in the cave.
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Re: Cave survey programs that adjust features

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Jun 5, 2009 10:45 pm

Spike wrote:This is what Jeff, Stan, and myself are currently doing, unlike what Mark is doing with Zicafoose Blowhole, roundtripping in the cave.


/nod. Some of these surveys were drawn the month I was born.

Aaron, it's really only a blip in the standard Walls/Illustrator workflow we use in Mammoth Cave. If you look at the Big Rift quadrangle I sent you, the layer structure is kind of wacky looking; that's because I'm following the roundtripping convention. I didn't need to make any changes to the River data, as I'm just providing Walls with a UTM centerpoint and dimensions for the map sheet and including a "merged" SVG when I export an SVG with lineplot updates such as new survey.

One of the biggest benefits for a large cave project like Mammoth is that it ensures (hopefully) that future data corrections and upgrades don't cause the line plot and the drafted map to drift apart. For example, in our specific case: as we finish replacing survey along the Logsdon River trunk, and as we remove the old surveys, all I need to do to make sure the artwork on Big Rift adjusts with the line plot changes is an additional roundtrip.
"Although it pains me to say it, in this case Jeff is right. Plan accordingly." --Andy Armstrong
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Re: Cave survey programs that adjust features

Postby Martin Sluka » Jun 6, 2009 5:23 am

Interestingly, one could also use these features out of the cave in conjunction with scanned survey notes to draft a cave map.


Martin Budaj's article at Vercors 2008: http://therion.speleo.sk/downloads/thar ... s-2008.pdf

M.
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Re: Cave survey programs that adjust features

Postby Aaron Addison » Jun 7, 2009 10:12 pm

Aaron, it's really only a blip in the standard Walls/Illustrator workflow we use in Mammoth Cave. If you look at the Big Rift quadrangle I sent you, the layer structure is kind of wacky looking; that's because I'm following the roundtripping convention. I didn't need to make any changes to the River data, as I'm just providing Walls with a UTM centerpoint and dimensions for the map sheet and including a "merged" SVG when I export an SVG with lineplot updates such as new survey.


Ahh.. here lies some of the issues with any technology v1.0. You are following standards to make the roundtripping work and not the MACA standards. The technology changes, the standards should not. The goal at MACA is to have all AI files with the same layer structure.

One of the biggest benefits for a large cave project like Mammoth is that it ensures (hopefully) that future data corrections and upgrades don't cause the line plot and the drafted map to drift apart. For example, in our specific case: as we finish replacing survey along the Logsdon River trunk, and as we remove the old surveys, all I need to do to make sure the artwork on Big Rift adjusts with the line plot changes is an additional roundtrip.


I hear you, and want to believe that it is possible. However, I am also in the midst of republishing the 63 map sheets for MACA. Believe me when I say that things aren't quite there yet.

Hopefully several of us will be able to attend the session on surveying at ICS and discuss such things with logic laced passion!

AA
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Re: Cave survey programs that adjust features

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Jun 7, 2009 11:56 pm

Aaron Addison wrote:You are following standards to make the roundtripping work and not the MACA standards. The technology changes, the standards should not. The goal at MACA is to have all AI files with the same layer structure.

First I've heard of that. Is there a document somewhere? I just opened 3 different AI files from 3 different MACA cartographers and found 3 different layer structures, so I doubt I'm the turd in the punch bowl here. Either way, if at any point the layer structure became prohibitive, it wouldn't be more than an evening's work to reorder the layers.
:big grin:


Aaron Addison wrote:However, I am also in the midst of republishing the 63 map sheets for MACA. Believe me when I say that things aren't quite there yet.

Haha! Hear, hear. Let me ignore 62 of those for the sake of argument. Thus far, one sheet has been roundtripped (Big Rift). That sheet's artwork is tied to a composite of the River and Mammoth Ridge data sets (had no choice, there are 4 books on the sheet in the MR set). If that data changes in a way that affects Big Rift, I can adjust it. When we finish replacing the Z survey upstream and attach it to the appropriate surveys -- which will surely cause some creaking and groaning of the data -- I can adjust it. When we finish pulling the old no-clino Z survey out of the river trunk, I can adjust it. If we decide that, since the adjacent Logsdon River sheet has already been drafted, it's better to NOT adjust it... well, we can do that too. Bottom line, some ability to adapt artwork to data is better than none ability.
"Although it pains me to say it, in this case Jeff is right. Plan accordingly." --Andy Armstrong
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Re: Cave survey programs that adjust features

Postby rchrds » Jun 14, 2009 10:51 am

Help me out here- what is MACA, and if there is an AI standard, of sorts, can someone post it here, so we can start falling in line? I was completely unaware of such a thing.
Thanks!
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Re: Cave survey programs that adjust features

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Jun 15, 2009 8:22 am

rchrds wrote:Help me out here- what is MACA, and if there is an AI standard, of sorts, can someone post it here, so we can start falling in line?


Sorry about that! Actually, MACA is Mammoth Cave -- dunno why the park service abbreviates it that way, but they do (look at the URL) -- and if there is a standard for layer structure it would only apply to thsoe of us who draw maps in the Mammoth Cave system. This topic has wandered a bit! =)
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Re: Cave survey programs that adjust features

Postby elfish » Mar 27, 2010 3:49 pm

Compass now handles the adjustment of map features such as passage wall drawings, floor details, map symbols and text. It follows the general outline of Walls' layering scheme, although it adds additional, Compass-specific layers. It is designed to work with both Inkscape and Adobe Illustrator. It also has the capability of inserting the required layers into a previously-drawn map, allowing you to "adopt" it into for use in Compass (or Walls). In addition to the SVG export, morphy/merging and round-tripping tools, Compass also has a new sketch map Editor that helps you prepare sketch maps for incoporation into digital maps. The tools allow you orient, scale, morph, cleanup and merge multiple sketchmaps into a single image. The morphing features assures that sketchmap features are perfectly scaled and aligned to the station locations in survey data. All this makes it easy to trace your sketch map into a program like Adobe Illustrator or Inkscape with a minimum amount of hand adjustment.

All the details, plus step-by-step tutorials are available on the Compass web page:

http://www.fountainware.com/compass
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