Cave survey programs that adjust features

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Cave survey programs that adjust features

Postby Bob Thrun » May 19, 2009 10:33 pm

What are the cave survey data reduction programs that will move walls and passage features when a new closure adjustment is made? The original ELLIPSE is long gone and the program and source canot be found. The current programs that I know of are Walls, WinKarst, Carto, and Therion. All of these are easy to find in the Internet. Are there any others?
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Re: Cave survey programs that adjust features

Postby Leclused » May 20, 2009 3:55 am

Compass is also good

http://www.fountainware.com/compass/

Dagobert
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Re: Cave survey programs that adjust features

Postby Martin Sluka » May 20, 2009 4:12 am

Leclused wrote:Compass is also good

http://www.fountainware.com/compass/

Dagobert


I'm afraid Compass is not the type of program you may draw the map in.

2 Bob: check the ability of such programs to "morf" correctly the map if there are several overlapping passages (one passage independently on others).

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Re: Cave survey programs that adjust features

Postby Footleg » May 20, 2009 4:44 am

I use Tunnel, which works in conjunction with Survex for managing the numerical survey data.

http://www.freesteel.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Tunnel

This program is working well for a 50km+ system we are resurveying and extending in Spain
(as part of on gong British expeditions: http://www.matienzo.org.uk).

Great for morphing the drawing as we replace sections of 30+ year old survey data with new resurveyed data, and adjust entrance positions (or find new ones) positioned using GPS.
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Re: Cave survey programs that adjust features

Postby Aaron Addison » May 20, 2009 8:51 am

We are planning to have a time at the upcoming ICS to discuss such things. I would be particularly interested in hearing about survex, Tunnel, and any other programs that are being used outside the USA.

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Re: Cave survey programs that adjust features

Postby Jeff Bartlett » May 20, 2009 11:34 am

sluka wrote:I'm afraid Compass is not the type of program you may draw the map in.


Neither is Walls; that wasn't the question.
Does Compass offer any level of feature adjustment?
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Re: Cave survey programs that adjust features

Postby Martin Sluka » May 20, 2009 1:23 pm

xcathodex wrote:
sluka wrote:I'm afraid Compass is not the type of program you may draw the map in.


Neither is Walls; that wasn't the question.
Does Compass offer any level of feature adjustment?


As I know Walls is able to change coordinates of stations after loop closure in SVG file and the modified SVG file may be imported to Illustrator and save back. Only problem is when there are several overlapping levels, because the feature adjustment will change all levels.

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Re: Cave survey programs that adjust features

Postby Jeff Bartlett » May 20, 2009 1:35 pm

sluka wrote:As I know Walls is able to change coordinates of stations after loop closure in SVG file and the modified SVG file may be imported to Illustrator and save back. Only problem is when there are several overlapping levels, because the feature adjustment will change all levels.


Yes, I agree, and am finishing up a map utilizing this very workflow. But you don't draw IN the program, so your comment was misleading.
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Re: Cave survey programs that adjust features

Postby Martin Sluka » May 20, 2009 3:59 pm

xcathodex wrote:
sluka wrote:As I know Walls is able to change coordinates of stations after loop closure in SVG file and the modified SVG file may be imported to Illustrator and save back. Only problem is when there are several overlapping levels, because the feature adjustment will change all levels.


Yes, I agree, and am finishing up a map utilizing this very workflow. But you don't draw IN the program, so your comment was misleading.


I apologize, my english is not the language I learned first :)

I thought about it: Walls uses as map editor Illustrator or other vector editor able to work with SVG files. Therion is not only one program and maps are not drawn in therion itself, but in map editor of xtherion. But both are "one package".

As is writen in thbook: "A program should do one thing, and do it well." (Ken Thompson) Therefore we use some valuable external programs, which are related to the problems of typesetting and data visualization. Therion can then do its task much better than if it was a standalone application in which you could calibrate your printer or scanner and with one click send e-mail with your data.
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Re: Cave survey programs that adjust features

Postby Bob Thrun » May 20, 2009 6:31 pm

sluka wrote:As I know Walls is able to change coordinates of stations after loop closure in SVG file and the modified SVG file may be imported to Illustrator and save back. Only problem is when there are several overlapping levels, because the feature adjustment will change all levels.
m.

I was not aware of that behavior. ELLIPSE, the predecessor of Walls. tied the passage features to the two stations at the ends of a survey shot.

A versatile drawing program is probably larger than a cave survey data reduction program. I think David McKenzie was correct in using an existing drawing program. There is no need to re-invent the wheel, only to have the tail wagging the dog (sorry for the cliches). My CMAP program does not have an editor for data entry. The user can use any text editor, of which there are plenty.

I am familiar with Compass, having critized its loop closure method in a couple of articles in Compass and Tape. Compass will draw a map, using the passage dimensions that were recorded with each shot. If we want that sort of map, then why are we sketching the passage details? I know some users of Carto who will morph the sketches and use that as the working map for later surveyors to take into the cave.
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Re: Cave survey programs that adjust features

Postby Martin Sluka » May 21, 2009 1:49 am

Bob Thrun wrote:Compass will draw a map, using the passage dimensions that were recorded with each shot. If we want that sort of map, then why are we sketching the passage details?


It is more about a philosophy of documentation of caves, then about a particular program.

The very old (it began somewhere in 60-ties in USA) idea is to find a format of data which will archive not only surveying data (including advanced LRUD data) but all collected informations about the cave. Many cave softwares do or did it on different level, using different solutions.

And one quite important principle: such archive data should be not independent on particular program, so their format should be plain text. Editable and interpretable anytime in the future.

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Re: Cave survey programs that adjust features

Postby Footleg » May 21, 2009 3:39 am

Aaron Addison wrote:We are planning to have a time at the upcoming ICS to discuss such things. I would be particularly interested in hearing about survex, Tunnel, and any other programs that are being used outside the USA.

AA


I am going to be attending ICS2009, so please let me know when you are planning this discussion. I can show Survex and Tunnel with the 50+km system I have been drawing up since I took on the project in 2006.
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Re: Cave survey programs that adjust features

Postby Jeff Bartlett » May 21, 2009 11:32 am

Aaron Addison wrote:We are planning to have a time at the upcoming ICS to discuss such things. I would be particularly interested in hearing about survex, Tunnel, and any other programs that are being used outside the USA.


Aaron, you'd be welcome to use my MACA sheet as an example of the Walls/Illustrator roundtripping workflow. I'll have a file to you by the end of next week anyway.
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Re: Cave survey programs that adjust features

Postby Stan Allison » May 28, 2009 2:43 pm

Aaron and All,

I too am interested in attending the discussion. I will be presenting at the ICS on recent exploration and cartography in Dry Cave which is a 9.3 mile long maze cave that I have drafted as exploration progressed using the Walls/Illustrator SVG roundtripping process.

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Re: Cave survey programs that adjust features

Postby Spike » May 29, 2009 10:11 am

I believe I am correct here, but the limitation is in the SVG format as far as 2D versus 3D morphing. I don't think SVG allows 3D clipping in multiple planes. Aaron I believe you know more about this than I. Luckily for me, for now, that map I'm working on that I'm using the round tripping work flow with is fairly 2 dimensional. However when I get back to working on my Turner/Mather in Flint Ridge I will have plenty of spaghetti canyons to cause me morphing grief.

I think one of the more interesting things the round tripping allows is the drafting of hanging survey. With a "dummy" shot one can get the line plot on the map and the passage drafted and as the passage is tied in later the drafted work will move into it's proper place. You will have to do some manual editing to get this to work but if you've got 1000 meters of cave somewhere that some bonehead forgot to tie in or couldn't find a tie station, you are not 100% hosed.
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