Competition for the SAP : The DISTOX

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Competition for the SAP : The DISTOX

Postby Leclused » Sep 8, 2008 2:22 am

There is a new tool that allows you to measure Distance/compass/inclination by one button. It is called the DistoX and is an upgrada of a Leica disto meter. We from SC Avalon are thinking of bying one in the near future. This summer we did a lot of surveying in the Anniallare system (France) with the SAP and at first everything looked ok but the compass is not that accurate then first thought. There is a significant difference in the way you hold the device (horizontally or vertically). But we were lucky and the data could be corrected properly. Anyway the SAP remains a good tool but the evolution is going fast these days and the DistoX seems to be the next step in digital surveying. The DistoX has also his problems like the influence of the batteries on the compass.

Here is a message I picked up from the auriga group from Luc Le Blanc who also announce a link between the Distox and Auriga.

Hi,

I'm just back from Vercors 2008, the European caving congress where Beat Heeb announced his DistoX, a compas/clino electronic board that installs inside a Disto A3 (Leica) to convert it into a 3-in-1 survey device that simultaneously acquires the distance, azimuth and slope at the press of a button on the Disto. Data can be read on screen and sent over Bluetooth. Some people already bought the board for 180 € (260 U$). Vversion 1.14 of Auriga due this Fall will offer a connection with the DistoX while the calibration shall be ported to Palm OS,. http://paperless.bheeb.ch


BR

Dagobert L'Ecluse (Sc Avalon - Belgium)
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Re: Competition for the SAP : The DISTOX

Postby Bob Thrun » Sep 9, 2008 5:33 pm

The magnetic influence of the batteries would be a killer for me. It might be possible to get non-magnetic batteries. I have a marine compass with a light in it that requres a non-magnetic carbon-zinc AAA cell. They are still available. These were the standard type of battery before batteries were sealed in steel to prevent leaking. The do not have the lifetime (energy) of alkaline cells, but have the same voltage.

I have a Disto Classic that has a steel plate on the side for a magnetic-mount accessory. Does the Disto A3 have the same? How are the rest of the parts?
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Re: Competition for the SAP : The DISTOX

Postby Leclused » Sep 10, 2008 2:05 am

Hi Bob,

The problem with the batteries is known and the best solutions is to use batteries which are the less magnetic as possible. If normal batteries are used (reachargeable or not) the calibration need to be done for each set of batteries. If rechargeable set are used the have to be marked to be able to fit them always in the same way.

Yesterday during the club meeting we decided to go for the distox.

We did use the SAP and our chairmain of the club sorted out the calibration and now the Sap is working properly. Next week the sap will be retested again in the PSM (anniallara system).

We did not see the rest of the parts but for what we know is that a small module has to be placed in the disto and the metal screws need to be replaced. Ok by doing this we lose the warranty of Leica. But we are willing to take the risk because we believe that the distox will have some extra benefits against the SAP.

The future will tell.

As soon as we have the equipement (will take some time) we start testing and comparing.

BR

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Re: Competition for the SAP : The DISTOX

Postby Marbry » Sep 12, 2008 12:50 am

That's a pretty ingenious solution, especially being able to incorporate it all within the existing device like that. I think I'd give it a go if I could solder worth a damn. My soldering efforts usually produce a lot cussing, burnt smells, and sometimes flames.
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Re: Competition for the SAP : The DISTOX

Postby Chris Chenier » Sep 15, 2008 11:31 am

Bob Thrun wrote:I have a Disto Classic that has a steel plate on the side for a magnetic-mount accessory. Does the Disto A3 have the same? How are the rest of the parts?


Worry not: no big steel plate on the A3.

I got my DistoX calibrated yesterday (not too difficult, but it does take some time as one needs to do some 56 shots). Preliminary tests are encouraging as I can get consistent azimuth readings even when tilting the device in every direction imaginable (and those were consistent with the Suunto readings I was taking).

(For those of you who were at the Survey & Cartography session at the NSS Convention last month, this is the device I mentioned at the end of a talk about various electronic devices; I just did't know it marketing name at the time.)

I'll post in-cave results as soon as I have some.
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Re: Competition for the SAP : The DISTOX

Postby Marbry » Sep 22, 2008 10:26 am

Sounds good, I'd be interested to hear how you do on battery life with some typical in-cave use. And whether you're turning it off and on between stations and such. Considering the hassle of recalibrating it, it would be nice to be able to get a full day's use on one set of batteries so you didn't have to recalibrate in the cave.

Seems like this would be ideal for 1 or 2 person surveying.
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Re: Competition for the SAP : The DISTOX

Postby geckosenator » Sep 23, 2008 11:30 pm

Hi, I saw this post and I can't help but reply.

I am making my own clino/compass for use in cave surveying. It uses much more advanced auto-calibration algorithms and I have good results. The website is:

digitalsurveyinstruments.com

Let me know if there is any interest, I can sell units directly now to individuals for about $150 each.

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Re: Competition for the SAP : The DISTOX

Postby lleblanc » Sep 24, 2008 5:12 pm

Geckosenator wrote:

I am making my own clino/compass for use in cave surveying. It uses much more advanced auto-calibration algorithms and I have good results. The website is: digitalsurveyinstruments.com


It's not clear what you're selling: the main page shows a calculator-like survey device, while the Pointer page has a "Purchase here" link that leads to a Calibrated Magnetometer Mouse. Is this mouse to be connected to your survey device???


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Re: Competition for the SAP : The DISTOX

Postby geckosenator » Sep 24, 2008 6:16 pm

Hi,

I am selling two different devices. The first one which is just completed now is a complete survey device for incline and asmith. You can also enter in distances and retrieve them onscreen on via usb, but it does not measure distance.

The other device is much smaller, and does not have a screen, but it is fully capable of surveying and it is waterproof, and it is cheaper. This device could be plugged into a PDA for example and can be configured to report incline and asmith data via usb.

Maybe you are just interested in my calibration routines. You could port it to the PDA and use it with the distoX. I have a way of taking raw accelerometer and magnetometer data and outputting incline and asmith. I call it autocalibration, which means you do not need to use another compass to calibrate it, and it is always updating the calibration all the time to deal with sensor drift over time. It is also much more accurate than the SAP method (I read his math, it is missing a lot)
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Re: Competition for the SAP : The DISTOX

Postby lleblanc » Sep 24, 2008 8:01 pm

geckosenator wrote:I am selling two different devices. The first one which is just completed now is a complete survey device for incline and asmith. You can also enter in distances and retrieve them onscreen on via usb, but it does not measure distance.

The other device is much smaller, and does not have a screen, but it is fully capable of surveying and it is waterproof, and it is cheaper. This device could be plugged into a PDA for example and can be configured to report incline and asmith data via usb.


Unfortunately, PalmOS devices being USB slaves, they cannot drive such a device. Otherwise, I'd have offered to support them in Auriga. Bluetooth perhaps ?

geckosenator wrote:Maybe you are just interested in my calibration routines. You could port it to the PDA and use it with the distoX.


Actually, the DistoX already has its own calibration protocol that strictly dictates how specific calibration factors are to be sent to the device after calibration measurements have been processed on a remote PC or PDA. I am currently porting this calibration routine to PalmOS, as a standalone Bluetooth program.

Regards,


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Re: Competition for the SAP : The DISTOX

Postby geckosenator » Sep 24, 2008 9:21 pm

Actually, my pointer device has support for usb host, so we can probably make it work, however I normally run off usb power, so I would have to add a battery.. it would need a board respin for that. I could add bluetooth as well, but it would be in the next version as well.

As for calibration, you really just need raw output for the sensors, the algorithms can compute all the unknowns. This includes sensor bias, scale-factors, misalignment of the axis (sensors are not orthogonal) and the rotation between the accels and mags, this is all automatic. There is another rotation for the misalignment of the laser which requires 3 shots with different rotations around the laser. This software is C and if you have a compiler you could recompile it for a palm.
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Re: Competition for the SAP : The DISTOX

Postby LWB » Oct 2, 2008 11:14 pm

I'm very much interested in your calibration routines. That is the challenging part for all these devices. Do you have more info?
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Re: Competition for the SAP : The DISTOX

Postby Chris Chenier » Oct 8, 2008 12:30 pm

Contrary to the SAP, the DistoX does not need an external (Suunto or other) compass to calibrate. Calibration requires some 20 minutes and is pretty easy once you understand what to do.

I just came back from a week of using my DistoX in Lechuguilla. Bluetooth was turned off (because the version of Auriga that supports the DistoX is now yet released), and the battery level has just gone down one notch. I unfortunately do not know how much more power Bluetooth would have used, but I suspect that I would have been ok for the entire week without having to change batteries (and have to re-calibrate). (Notice that if you're using Bluetooth, it's because you have a PDA or PC along, and you can use it to recalibrate if required, so this is not so critical.)

There was some new survey as well as some resurvey. In all cases, backsights were taken for both azimuth and slope using a Suunto Tandem. On the new survey, we always compared the backsights with the DistoX foresights before moving along to the next shot. On resurveys, we also compared the results to the previous survey's data (all survey stations are marked in Lech). We found errors in the old survey (that's why we were re-surveing), but other than those, foresights and backsights were always within the 2 degrees tolerance allowed by the Park (often much less). There were a few exceptions, but after re-taking the shots, it was concluded that the Suunto reading was incorrect the first time the backsight was taken. We happened to close 2 loops and the errors were 1% and 1.7% on those. Should have I always had a firm surface to rest the instrument upon when taking the shot, there is no doubt that closure error would be smaller.

Contrary to the prototype of another similar instrument I used a few years ago, the DistoX does not need to be held level to make an accurate measurement. You just need to point the laser at the right place.

In conclusion, I am happy with my DistoX purchase and would recommend it to any serious surveyor.
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Re: Competition for the SAP : The DISTOX

Postby Martin Sluka » Oct 8, 2008 2:45 pm

I unfortunately do not know how much more power Bluetooth would have used, but I suspect that I would have been ok for the entire week without having to change batteries (and have to re-calibrate).


I'm no so sure if one will use the automatic Bluetooth connection. Another problem is about 10 m range only for BT connection. In automatic mode the data will be transfered automatically when the sketcher will come closer to surveyor.

Contrary to the prototype of another similar instrument I used a few years ago, the DistoX does not need to be held level to make an accurate measurement. You just need to point the laser at the right place.


If only there is the timer on A3! With BT transfer of data I spent app. 1/3 of time to manually delete the misplaced measurements. Or if similar module is available for another laser instruments with timer.

In conclusion, I am happy with my DistoX purchase and would recommend it to any serious surveyor.


I subscribe with you.
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Re: Competition for the SAP : The DISTOX

Postby Footleg » May 15, 2009 8:15 am

Having been using a DistoX and PDA on expedition last month I was really impressed with the system. I just wanted to raise awareness of the possible discontinuation of these devices, and a coordinated effort to try and put in a bulk order from the UK to generate sufficient demand for another production run. See this link to the UKCaving forum for the details and contact:

http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php/topic,8257.0.html

If there is similar interest in the US then it might be worth coordinating with Dave Ryall in the UK to combine the orders into one production run (assuming Beat Heeb who designed and makes the device is prepared to make any more of course).
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