New Surveyor

[TAGCaver]

I am new to surveying. I have been with a few groups now, and a few buddies of mine are wanting to get our own group together. We are looking to spend under $300, and was curious what you guys though would be the best equipment for around that amount.

Let me know your opinions!

Chris

[NZcaver]

A compass, clinometer, and tape might be a good start. Plus a waterproof survey book, pencil, eraser, protractor, flagging tape, and a marker.

For $200 you should be able to find a couple of Suunto Tandem compass/clino units (new or slightly used) on eBay. The book etc shouldn't cost much. With the extra $100 you could either buy a tape and some some change left over, or look at getting one of the cheaper laser distance measuring devices (try eBay for these too).

Take some time, and read through the threads in this part of the forum. There's a wealth of information there. I also suggest signing up for a surveying/sketching workshop at the next NSS convention (or anywhere else one is held).

[Jeff Bartlett]

basic equipment:
rite-in-the-rain survey binder @ IMO = $11
100 sheets of offset paper @ IMO = $13
Suunto Tandem #1 on ebay = $100ish
Suunto Tandem #2 on ebay = $100ish
100' fiberglass tape reel w/ decimal side = $15
protractor/straightedge - a couple bucks
mechanical pencil - steal one from work like everyone else

that'll do it for under $300. since you'll have a couple of bucks left over, allow me to recommend a few extras:

extra stuff:
Palm IIIxe on ebay to run Auriga: $30 (http://www.speleo.qc.ca/Auriga/)
waterproof pouch for Palm: $15
small, efficient flashlight with red LED for use as target light & illuminating instruments: $17 (x2) (here)

grand total: $318 (not including shipping)

[TAGCaver]

can you give me an example of a laser finder? And, in your opinion, are they worth it? The other things are covered (tape, papers, books, palm, etc.) Im simply talking about a measuring device, preferably an all in one, but not required.

Thanks for your help thus far!

[Jeff Bartlett]

can you give me an example of a laser finder? And, in your opinion, are they worth it? The other things are covered (tape, papers, books, palm, etc.) Im simply talking about a measuring device, preferably an all in one, but not required.

the disto A3 is $300 by itself, and it's not rated as being waterproof. i believe they make a model with a built in clinometer for even more money. Bosch has one in the $200 range that i haven't heard any testimonials on yet. Stanley and Craftsman have recently released laser rangefinders in the $100 range, but i'm likewise yet to hear any reviews from cavers. the "ultrasonic" ones, which don't use a true laser, are junk.

the shetland attack pony doesn't do distance, but it's a combined electronic clino and compass that shoots a laser for you to line it up with the "TO" station. have heard only good things so far. oh, and it's made in europe, and it costs 250 pounds (currently about $526)...

go buy a $15 reel of fiberglass tape =)

[NZcaver]

Personally I have one of the larger and slightly older Disto units - the Classic 5. It's my second Disto, and so far it's been great.

I hear the A3 is a nice unit, but I'm particularly intrigued with the Bosch unit recently mentioned here. The Craftsman mentioned there looks interesting too. I had a brief play with the Stanley Fat Max laser a while back, but wasn't all that impressed. Of course these Distos and other devices can be usually be found cheaper on eBay as well.

Maybe one day I'll have to play with this idea of bringing a Palm along on a survey trip. Oh, and with the station marker light, I've found green to be more effective than red. You should try it.

[Jeff Bartlett]

Maybe one day I'll have to play with this idea of bringing a Palm along on a survey trip. Oh, and with the station marker light, I've found green to be more effective than red. You should try it.

i'm just a big fan of "anything but white", in terms of efficiency and blunder prevention. talk me into green =)

[NZcaver]

Green is at the middle of the spectrum, and it theoretically a more easily visible color. I've used red, blue, and clear/white in the past, and I find green the most pleasant. Blue is also fun, but to my eyes it's seems to "star" when I'm squinting over a compass at it.

[cavedoc]

basic equipment:

protractor/straightedge - a couple bucks
mechanical pencil - steal one from work like everyone else

I'll put in a good word for a cheap hand held orienteering compass (about $8) instead of a protracter. I find it more useful than the protracter. Just dial in the azimuth and line up the north lines with the appropriate lines on your paper. Move it around so an edge is on your last station and it's so easy to put the next station to scale where it needs to be. Most people seem to prefer the protracter but I just find it harder to use. And with the hand held compass I can always double check stuff myself and get a better sence for side passage directions. Works for profiles too though perhaps less intuitive than a protracter for that.

Here's an example of a cheap one. The ideal would be square on each side with different scales. Silva makes them like that from time to time but I don't see one in their catalog this moment.

http://www.silvacompass.com/p-49-starter-1-2-3.aspx

[driggs]

Don't forget a copy of On Station!

[Marbry]

I would forgo the electronic devices initially. You have a lot to do just getting the basics down first.

Pick short non-complex caves to start out with. That will help keep you and crew from getting frustrated right off the bat, and give you something you can complete within a reasonable time frame.

Bring extra mechanical pencils, you'll need them at some point.

Make sure you actually take the extra instruments in the cave with you, well padded of course. Your first set may not necessarily break, but often they can fog up and it's just easier to pull out another set.

A copy of On Station is definitely a good resource.

And once someone is comfortable with one position don't forget to rotate jobs so that everyone knows what's going on.

[NZcaver]

I agree one should learn the basics first, before deciding whether to spend big dollars on electronics later.

Running tape and instruments on somebody else's survey project is a good start (just as the initial poster has done). This should also provide insight into which survey gear local cavers are using, and why. Taking a sketching class is a good idea too.

I don't mean to discourage anyone from purchasing On Station, but it is now 13 years old and some parts seem a little more dated than others. I just sold my personal copy. I originally skimmed through the relevant parts, but found I never needed it again for reference. There are other materials out there if you look.

[FiddleCaver]

I would have to say that I really like the Bosch DLR165 rangefinder. It's super small, pretty durable, and helps a ton especially in big rooms. I was sketching cross sections last weekend in a passage that was 150' wide, full of apartment sized breakdown with deep chasms between most them. The Bosch made that job a million times easier and probably made a big difference in the accuracy of the drawing.

A sketching class will probably be the most helpful thing you could do for starting surveying. My last suggestion, go do a couple of caves that someone else has already surveyed, then compare your map to the other one. You'll get a good idea of what you need to work on. And if you have any doubts in the accuracy of the shots your team is doing, just have them survey a loop and put it in walls, then you'll know how the shots are.

[Bob Thrun]

I don't mean to discourage anyone from purchasing On Station, but it is now 13 years old and some parts seem a little more dated than others. I just sold my personal copy. I originally skimmed through the relevant parts, but found I never needed it again for reference. There are other materials out there if you look.

I do not know what you would call better. I think I have all the available books on cave mapping, and even a couple of unavailable ones I have many small arguments with the information in On Station, but when I stand back and stop being picky, it is the best available. The reason is that George has plenty of examples and more than one way to do some things.

My second choice would be Pat Kambesis's chapter in the CRF Personal Manual. As the title suggests, it concentrates on the CRF methods of doing things. CRF has special requiring ways of recording and archiving data. This is not widely distributed, but can be bought directly from the CRF.

My third choice is The Art of Cave Mapping, Volume 31 of Missouri Speleology. In many places it does not have the ring of authority. I cannot believe that the authors have used all the methods that are described. Plane table and alidade? Sun sights to determine lat-lon? Stadia for distances?

Fourth choice among publications is the BCRA booklet on cave surveying. It has too few examples and everything is worded in terms of Survey Grades.

Beyond hese four books, there are newsletter articles, some out-of-print books and one book in Catalan.

For those who want to get some good advice on the cheap, http://www.dugcaves.org/survey.htm has links to some articles. These are individual articles and not an attempt for a coordinated text.

You can download some newsletters of the BCRA Cave Surveying Group at http://www.chaos.org.uk/survex/cp/index.htm

Finally, I would advise potential mappers to learn how to write cave maps by reading cave maps. Take copies of some maps into some caves and compare the maps to the caves. Decide what you might add in or leave out.

[George Dasher]

Mmmmmm....

I always thought one of the worse things about On Station is that it gives tooooo many ways to do things...