1.2 pound Cave Surveying Tablet PC

[cavescom]

2 Models

1st Model has a normal hard drive and about $1100

Both would be real nice if placed in a ruggedized case setup for cave surveying. When the price drops a bit I will be getting one for just this purpose!

Link to view Model #1 http://tinyurl.com/29qbgu

2nd Model has a 32GB Flash Drive....so no movin parts and faster boot ups.

Link to view Model #2 http://tinyurl.com/2ugxeg

MODEL #1 Pics standard hard drive $1100







Model #2 Pics 32GB Flash Drive $1800














Mark Passerby, Cavediggers.com

[/b]

[Eric Wright]

From the description of the first one:

Power
It comes with the standard VGP-BPS6 standard capacity lithium ion battery, which provides between 2.5 and 4.5 hours of power (depending on usage). The optional large capacity VGP-BPL6 battery can power the UX380N for up to 9 hours.

After accounting for the tendency of
1) laptop and hand-held batteries to degrade in their ability to hold a charge over time;
2) charge times to degrade in cold environments; and
3) manufacturers to lie about^H^H ahem, overestimate actual battery life on a single charge,

I guess I'd worry about the suitability of something like this for a cave. I mean, if you have to carry around another battery pack, it kind of defeats the purpose of having a small hand-held.

My 2c, anyway.

-Eric
[/quote]

[cavescom]

In a cave you can dial the screen brightness all the way down plus turn the screen off between shots.

How we began managing it was the shot crew took 4 to 5 shots ahead of me dropping these little colored LED lights at or near each shot point. Then they delivered the shot data to me. I then turn on the monitor.... enter the data in Walls and export an SVG....then open the SVG in Illustrator and draw in the walls using the left right vectors at each station as easy guides for passage width.....walking forward I add details using a complete set of symbols(drag/drop) and preset brush strokes for streams, slopes etc.
Then Save as an SVG adding a simple .mrg in the file name. Once this is done I set Walls to use the .mrg file as the Merge SVG file and turn off the screen and wait for the next set of data.

Once the next set of data arrives....turn on screen....enter data....export the SVG with the addition this time of the mrg.svg file. Open up the new SVG in Illustrator which will now have all the previously drawn cave plus the newest lineplot for the new data......then draw and continue.

So a cave survey that lasts 8 hours may only require the laptop to be on a total of 6 hours or less at low brightness and very little use of the processor.
My guess is that the extended battery and a regular battery would cover most survey trips well.

AND when you leave the cave the working map of that days survey is done!

Mark Passerby, Cavediggers.com

[Eric Wright]

That sounds like a good solution to battery issues. Cool!

[cavescom]

Here is a review by Alan Blevins that he just sent me.

I have used this exact device for a computer science research project at Texas A&M. Here's my review, hopefully this will help inform your decision to buy.

Good:
Very portable
Sharp screen
Loaded with wifis, bluetooths, fingerprint scanner, two! cameras, all sorts of gizmos
Impressive processing power for its size (Intel Core)
Impressive memory for its size (1 GB)
Runs Windows XP Pro (Tablet), and any software that can run on XP (Walls, Illustrator, etc)

Bad:
While images and text are sharp and clearly displayed on the screen, they are also tiny. Very tiny.
Comes loaded (bloated) with custom Sony software which is the only thing that can be used with most of the custom Sony hardware... uninstall at your own risk
Mouse is controlled by "nub", similar to those (formerly?) found on IBM Thinkpads, and is more tedious than one would expect it to be. Granted, it can also be controlled by touchscreen, but sometimes you need hardware-mouse capabilities (point and right-click, for example)
Not very rugged - needs to handled with care when removed from its armored shell (purchased separately)
Easy to steal

Ugly:
Slide-out keyboard is tiny and nearly unusable. Perhaps someone with more delicate hands than mine would have more success, but no-one I've seen interact with it has had much luck typing with the keyboard. Even short sentences are difficult. You could bring along an external keyboard...

Overall it is a very cool gadget with ample computing power. It seems that using the Walls / Illustrator combo on a cave survey would be tedious, but with practice I could see a person getting fairly efficient with it.

One aspect that may get overlooked is the potential for custom-made cave mapping software made specifically for this device (and other tablets) - that is, a program that shows you the map as you make it, lets you draw the walls around your survey using the touch-screen and a stylus (including cross-sections), auto-syncs your map with the map of another caver who has been surveying a different part of the cave when you meet (via Wifi or Bluetooth), and can export your map to Walls, Illustrator, etc). If numbers and a few select buttons were placed on the touchscreen, one would not even need the built-in keyboard, and even gloved operation may be possible. Just find someone to write the code, and you'll have the ultimate survey machine!

~Alan Blevins

[Martin Sluka]

One aspect that may get overlooked is the potential for custom-made cave mapping software made specifically for this device (and other tablets) - that is, a program that shows you the map as you make it, lets you draw the walls around your survey using the touch-screen and a stylus (including cross-sections), auto-syncs your map with the map of another caver who has been surveying a different part of the cave when you meet (via Wifi or Bluetooth), and can export your map to Walls, Illustrator, etc). If numbers and a few select buttons were placed on the touchscreen, one would not even need the built-in keyboard, and even gloved operation may be possible. Just find someone to write the code, and you'll have the ultimate survey machine!

:) THERION! (exception AUTO sync - but it could be added)

m.

[John Lovaas]

I'll stick with my survey data recording system-

- very robust; can survive a fall that would kill a human

- battery life is longer than any cave trip

- a hard copy of the dataset is generated instantaneously

- symbol sets, brushes, etc. are accessible instantaneously. If a new symbol is needed, it can be created in less than a second.

- data entry is FAST; no need to switch between programs. The faster the survey progresses, the happier everyone is, and the more likely it is that they will return for more survey trips!

The data entry tool can be found HERE-

http://tinyurl.com/2dkhmk

and one version of the data recording device can be found HERE-

http://tinyurl.com/2yq95j

While all of this may be a bit tongue-in-cheek, I never have to reboot my survey book, it never freezes or bluescreens, and it never runs out of juice.

And to think that the best possible version of a map can be produced while I am curled up in a slimy mud tube is, well, just funny. And the single greatest source of survey data error I have ever encountered is keystroke error. And I assure you that people will do crappier work laying on their side with a tiny tablet PC than sitting in a comfortable position in front of a CRT.

I'll be the first to admit that being able to do data reduction to look for errors in a complex maze cave is a great thing, and if you are on an expedition in a remote location, I'm all for bringing a laptop- and I do! If I was on a multi day in cave camp trip in a complex cave, it would be nice to have a copy of the dataset in a Palm, using Auriga.

But you know what? I'd still want to have paper backup of the areas in question, because if the Palm or tablet PC crapped out, the trip is FUBAR without the paper copies.

This all smells a bit of the Paperless Office that we were promised by the IT folks 20 years ago. Turns out noone can trust the Paperless Office, so we have to maintain hard copies anyway.

And please don't think I'm a complete Luddite; I spend my entire work day in front on a CRT, and most of my hobbies involve sitting in front of a CRT- be it digital photography, ambient music production, digital cartography, or GIS- yes, GIS as a hobby

[cavescom]

With 100's of survey books that have been tossed in dusty corners never to see the transformation into anything resembling a working map.....I think you may be on to something......but wait......Somebody just needs to find all those books......dust those ole' books off then try figure out what the heck the sketcher was doing.......then re-enter......redraw(from their interpretation of those dated faded sketches) and then and only then finally realize hell it all needs remapped because none of this dicombobulated mess makes any sense.

Tongue in cheek
The 100% traditional survey while it seems more reliable and secure has thus become the defining characteristic of the word Remap.

Here are my suggestions when adding a bit of technology to your in-cave digital survey(ICDS) effort:

1) Mechanical Pencil---This can be used by the data crew to record carefully all the survey shots(later this can be compared to the typed in data entry).

2) USB jump drive---To backup data periodically in the event of a system failure.

3) Survey Book---To use if the battery craps or the laptop gets dropped down "bottomless pit"....bring a spare battery.

4) Once out of cave add the new map sections to the digital working map.... pop out an SVG and share it with everyone....there won't be a need for a remap effort and the data can all be double checked with the notes taken by the data "pencil" crew.

5) Practice ICDS at home or better yet at work..... thoroughly so that you can stay at a close pace to the incoming data flow while in the cave.

To all the early adopters of "in-cave" digital survey(ICDS) I will admit there are many instances where these in cave innovations won't make sense right now, but they will continue to evolve as the early adopters push forward and begin to find ways to fill those voids.

Then over time a given cave project may see 20, 30, 40% or more being done by our ICDS's. This will in turn hopefully help to blow the dust from the survey books of those traditionals out there in the project to get their data added as well. The result being a nice usable, easily shareable working map.

Mark Passerby, Cavediggers.com

[John Lovaas]

With 100's of survey books that have been tossed in dusty corners never to see the transformation into anything resembling a working map

Well that is simple laziness and incompetence, and no digital device will ever address that issue.

then try figure out what the heck the sketcher was doing.......then re-enter......redraw(from their interpretation of those dated faded sketches) and then and only then finally realize hell it all needs remapped because none of this dicombobulated mess makes any sense.

and that applies to digitally recorded data as well. The same sketcher who does a crappy job with pencil and paper will do the same crappy job with a tablet PC- and his survey crew will be shivering sooner! ;-)

And I've never seen a sketch fade- unless it's something from the Middle Ages, done on vellum ;-)

The 100% traditional survey while it seems more reliable and secure has thus become the defining characteristic of the word Remap.

I believe it is the idea of what makes a Good Map that has driven resurvey projects.

Once upon a time a memory sketch was enough. Then we needed a plan view produced with compass and tape. Then someone realized that a cave is a three dimensional object, and that the speleological community needs plan, profile, and cross section views. And inventories. And photographs.

I was just reviewing your current version of the Zicafoose map- there is a dearth of profiles and cross sections; it would be particularly cool to see the overlapping cross sections- you do have that data, yes?

Here are my suggestions when adding a bit of technology to your in-cave digital survey(ICDS) effort:

1) Mechanical Pencil---This can be used by the data crew to record carefully all the survey shots(later this can be compared to the typed in data entry).

2) USB jump drive---To backup data periodically in the event of a system failure.

3) Survey Book---To use if the battery craps or the laptop gets dropped down "bottomless pit"....bring a spare

4) Once out of cave add the new map sections to the digital working map.... pop out an SVG and share it with everyone....there won't be a need for a remap effort and the data can all be double checked with the notes taken by the data "pencil" crew.

5) Practice ICDS at home or better yet at work..... thoroughly so that you can stay at a close pace to the incoming data flow while in the cave.

Yes, now there's redundancy, but the paper based system is as functional as the digital system- if you have competent people doing the work. Again- the same person who messes up a paper based project will mess up a digital project.

And believe me- it is a delight to enter the survey data into a laptop to review the data and get a sense of where the survey is going. But to a person, the people I cave with have no problem with looking at pencil and paper survey notes and figure out what's going on.

I'm very proficient with FreehandMX, and have gotten onboard with IllustratorCS3. I work with Walls and Compass, and there's no way I'll ever be able to record data faster with those programs than with a paper and pencil- no way.

And part of being a good sketcher is being good to your crew. The longer I make them wait, the shabbier I am treating them. Yes, they can go ahead and set up more stations and wait for me to catch up- then what. More waiting. Yes, they could poke around in nearby leads, but a responsible survey crew will survey every single miserable lead anyway- so the poking around is just redundant impact on the cave.

And I guess that's how I see your comments here, Mark- that there is a technological solution to what is a human-centered problem. The problem- people aren't producing finished map products, and your solution is to implement an in-cave digital solution.

I am of the mind that the same person who can sit on a bunch of survey books will also sit on the digital data that they collected. Same end result- no map, or at least something that the project participants can see.

The folks I survey with can handle waiting a day or two before I email them the updated draft of whatever we are working on. If folks demanded to see a finished map while we were sitting in the cave, I'd ask them to take a very large chill pill- or else they get to purchase, haul, protect, and maintain the tablet PC ;-)

Maps need to be made. I think we can both agree on that. And I wouldn't be making maps if not for digital cartography. But we'll never get the best possible digital cartographic product by producing it in the harshest, most unergonomic environment imaginable.

[Martin Sluka]

Once upon a time a memory sketch was enough. Then we needed a plan view produced with compass and tape. Then someone realized that a cave is a three dimensional object, and that the speleological community needs plan, profile, and cross section views. And inventories. And photographs.

There are very old maps of caves made with very good precision, made by mine cartographers. And there are very old pictures of caves documented that long time ago the caves were 3D objects for authors of those pictures..

And part of being a good sketcher is being good to your crew. The longer I make them wait, the shabbier I am treating them. Yes, they can go ahead and set up more stations and wait for me to catch up- then what. More waiting. Yes, they could poke around in nearby leads, but a responsible survey crew will survey every single miserable lead anyway- so the poking around is just redundant impact on the cave.

From middle of 70th I use to draw the map of cave in scale directly in cave. It is as fast as to do it by tablet PC. You are right, it is long time for your crew. But to see immediately the result of their work is the big motivation!

Maps need to be made. I think we can both agree on that. And I wouldn't be making maps if not for digital cartography. But we'll never get the best possible digital cartographic product by producing it in the harshest, most unergonomic environment imaginable.

You are absolutely right.

m.

[John Lovaas]

There are very old maps of caves made with very good precision, made by mine cartographers.

Yes, there are beautiful maps of Wisconsin lead and zinc mines that were done in the 1880s; beautiful running profiles and lots of cross sections along with the plan view.

And there are very old pictures of caves documented that long time ago the caves were 3D objects for authors of those pictures..

Ah! By 3D, I meant to draw the map in a way that one get the sense of the 3 dimensions of the cave- plan, profile, and cross section.

From middle of 70th I use to draw the map of cave in scale directly in cave. It is as fast as to do it by tablet PC. You are right, it is long time for your crew. But to see immediately the result of their work is the big motivation!

I guess for me, it is like getting a meal very fast(McDonald's), or stopping at a restaurant. Both hamburgers can be good, but getting it faster isn't important to me.

ps my mother's ancestors are from Protivin- I hope to visit someday.

[Martin Sluka]

ps my mother's ancestors are from Protivin- I hope to visit someday.

You are invited :)

m.

[cavescom]

But we'll never get the best possible digital cartographic product by producing it in the harshest, most unergonomic environment imaginable.

And what? it will be gotten by paper and pencil.....rofl

In Cave Digital Survey(ICDS) is still in its earliest stages.
However, ICDS even at this early stage facilitates faster sharing capabilities and has the potential to capture a whole lot more relevant data!
Where gains will be really made is when others jump on board and we begin sharing Illustrator brush stroke libraries, symbols libraries, fill libraries, and much more.
My new site will be designed with just this in mind i.e. a place to download shared libraries and learn how to use them to gain radical efficiencies.
What will result is the ability to produce STUNNING In Cave Digital Surveys just days after finishing the in cave working trip.

The New Site Address is: http://www.InCaveDigitalSurvey.com

In Cave Digital Survey(ICDS)

An experienced Adobe Illustrator sketcher who has his/her device loaded with elaborate and carefully created brush, symbol, and fill libraries can generate a far far more detailed working map in far less time while in the cave. For instance the ICDS sketcher can brush in a whole section of cobbles, a complex boulder pile, a massive mud slope, or a pool with full color in a few clicks and strokes!

The key is an investment of time at the front end i.e. symbols, custom brush strokes, boulders, cobbles, pools, fills etc. Different parts of this can be done by different ICDS folks from around the globe and shared for download by all!
Most importantly in all this is that prices are dropping on the technology so even more doors open for capturing even more data with the same device. For instance the ability to capture audio at each station by the ICDS sketcher. This will become an invaluable part of the online working map. It is simple for those ICDS minded that decide to put themselves at the helm of the ICDS project. Simply record the audio then make a link on the station on your online working map. Then six months later a crew looking at a lead list can click on a station near a lead marked on the working map and hear what the ICDS sketcher and team relayed about the lead.

Here is my newest ICDS rig It specifically is a Fujitsu Stylistic ST5010 coupled with an Otterbox 4600

I was just reviewing your current version of the Zicafoose map- there is a dearth of profiles and cross sections; it would be particularly cool to see the overlapping cross sections- you do have that data, yes?

Correct...most of the cave was sketched on paper largely by Bob Kirk and others. They along with other details left off the working map will be on the finished map.

Only a fraction of Zicafoose was done by ICDS...ah if I only knew then what I know now. Plus the right gear is now beginning to priced right and things like the Otterbox 4600 coming to market(finally).

I will recap a little of the history.
I chose Walls because of a presentation I saw at the California Convention. At that point I had never used Illustrator or Walls but decided to give it a go. I ended up spending quite a bit of time corresponding with David McKenzie working through various issues and hurdles. Then began experimenting with the In Cave Digital Survey(ICDS) idea in a cave.

Zicafoose
Parts of the 1st and 2nd drop area of the cave was done using a "borrowed" Getac ruggedized touchscreen laptop. It was very much a trial and error process but it went well enough to continue the path toward In Cave Digital Survey(ICDS).
Then I decided because of "budget" to buy a very inexpensive Fujitsu Stylistic 2300(ebay), PII, running Win98, Illustrator 10 and Walls. It is a pure tablet and slow so text entry was a royal pain in the ass. However it lit me on fire with the possibility because it worked......albeit the data crew had to have exceptional patience as the processor sludged through the roundtripping of the SVG. This Fujitsu Stylistic actually did a decent amount of cave surveying in the back of Zicafoose.
I then purchased a Panasonic Toughbook convertible tablet(very pricey) which I used a bit and then sold to Aaron Addison. I think Martin Sluka has one of these as well.

I now have:
1) a great inexpensive($400 ebay), lightweight convertible notebook/tablet i.e. Toshiba Portege M205
2) and a Panasonic Toughbook with touchscreen Notebook
3) and a ST5010 Fujitsu Stylistic tablet(ebay inexpensive)...very fast....long battery life...I have 2 batteries and will order another for some upcoming ICDS trips.
4) And a Otterbox tablet case specifically built for this Fujitsu Tablet series. More info. on this at http://www.otterbox.com/products/pc_cases/tablet/ with a pic below.

if the Disto will travel there then the ICDS will now go as well.

My goal moving forward is to reorder the process for 2 different types of ICDS's which will:
*Reduce total man hours ICDS vs Traditional by 20-40% depending on which routine is chosen
*Produce less chance for errors
*Generate twice as many relevant survey vectors for the drawn to scale ICDS sketcher
*Include voice data at each survey station that can be ran through Dragon software and extracted as text(or it can be loaded as audio links to the working map) and then added as "links"to each survey station on the online working map(with fast connections now the audio will be the fastest route to go).
*Speed up ICDS sketching through shared libraries.....very few if any paper sketchers on a traditional survey routine will be able to keep up with the sketcher at the helm of this reworked ICDS process.
*Reduce battery consumption by 40-50% vs previous ICDS process for the same footage surveyed.

I will be updating http://www.InCaveDigitalSurvey.com and welcome any content that others experimenting with the process want to submit or share...i.e. Illustrator symbols, boulders, fills, libraries etc.


Mark Passerby, Cavediggers.com

[wyandottecaver]

You guys are forgetting one thing. if you get too effecient at survey accuracy and producing maps that are instantly available by electronic media how will we ever get back into lech and carlesbad and other restricted caves to "fix" "bad" surveys:)

[John Lovaas]

And what? it will be gotten by paper and pencil.....rofl

Uh, no. If you had read my previous post carefully, I stated that if not for vector based drawing programs, I wouldn't be producing maps. My comment was directed at attempting to use a tablet PC in a cave, switching between Walls and Illustrator, and still making sure my survey crew actually wants to come caving with me again.

With my uber primitive paper and pencil system, I can do the plan view and running profile view, my lead tape can do cross sections, and the instrument person can do an inventory- everyone is involved and, if I may steal a phrase from Dave Taylor, "Being Useful!" And the captured data is more stable and shockproof than in any digital media.

I'd like to discuss this more, but I'm off to do an uber primitive survey in southern IL this weekend, with multiple crews using the uber primitive pencil and paper system. We'll scan the notes as we're drinking beer on Saturday night, and I'll have all the data in map from by Monday at the latest. Will it be stunning? I doubt it.

I'd be happy to share my Freehand symbols, except for the fact that Adobe gave up on Freehand and who knows- in 10 years there may not be an OS that Freehand will run on, except for someone with a "vintage" XP or Vista box.

And there a a bunch of good Illustrator symbol sets out there on Teh Internets. The Hong Mei Gui folks have a beautiful set, which I plan to ask to use when I'm finally comfortable with Illustrator CS3.

jl