I am curious as to what people's opinions would be

[Aaron Addison]

I could see where a line plot would be very useful if the cave only had a 2D paper map. The paper map could be used in conjunction with a lineplot for GIS purposes.

ESRI GIS software will now import data from COMPASS to generate 3D shape files. Of course a line plot survey would still need LRUD to establish a 3D file. The shape file would be on one layer and the 2D map could be on another layer. They could be toggled on and off to view how a cave would trend. The 3D shape fiel would also allow you to see how deep the cave is with a DEM layer.

Conceptually you are correct, however a couple of points to clarify. The data is not as much imported by ArcGIS as it is exported by COMPASS or WALLS. These cave survey programs export a shapefile that can be opened by ArcGIS. Also, the data is not in true 3D. Think more along the lines of 2.5D. Many times the viewer modules of COMPASS and/or WALLS seem to do a better job of displaying the data in 3D.

Still it can be useful to see relationships between the cave survey and the suface. For example a breakdown area cooresponding with a sinkhole or a sump that matches the flowline of a surface valley.

AA

[Tlaloc]

There is some survey by B-52 falls that I want to do in Great X and when I go into to survey, I want to do it the best I can...

Some of the sketches in that part of the cave are not great but at least somebody actually surveyed it rather than just talking about it.

[Edited by moderator]

[batrotter]

Thanks Aaron for the explanation. I don't know all the details around GIS but I'm sure interested.

[NZcaver]

I know people who have 'done it once, done it right' and then some hotshot comes by, redo the work (to no greater accuracy) and then run around condemning the prior mappers. Idiots...

Sounds like, if it is a maze cave, the maps are being done for route finding, not for artistic or scientific reasons. This can be very useful in maze caves.

There really doesn't have to be an "artistic or scientific reason" to add walls and a floor to a line plot - it's just called "cave mapping".

If I may politely suggest, mappers who re-survey/re-sketch caves for any number of reasons are not necessarily hotshots or idiots. The case you quoted above just sounds like a bad personal experience. Apparently emotions were running high, so there are some axes to grind.

I've been on a number of re-surveys - anything from trying to fix loop closures to plotting artifacts to impact mapping surveys. Only once have I heard anyone condemning the prior mappers. And then only mildly, in private, and within the survey team. In that instance, the original surveyors appeared to have considered the start of any crawling passages as being the end of the cave. That choice resulted in considerable delay during a cave search for missing persons - they were eventually found in the "real" back of the cave, well off the map. Stuff happens.

I'm sure some caver out there has re-surveyed a cave after me - but personally I'm not in the least offended by that. More power to them.

[Ralph E. Powers]

note to Mods... umm... wouldn't this thread be better placed in the Surveying section of the forum(s)??? just wondering.

[Evan G]

from lineplot to 3D,

I know people who have 'done it once, done it right' and then some hotshot comes by, redo the work (to no greater accuracy) and then run around condemning the prior mappers. Idiots...

I (f*&^%(*)wish, we are lucky to have anybody that can survey!!!! In Horsethief- Bighorn Cave System we have going passage (Virgin and non) that needs just to be put on the map. The cave is sitting at 14.6 miles and five years ago it was sitting at above 10 miles. On Bighorn Cave, MT I can't even get a line plot because someone lost 5 miles of data, so I can't add to the data. We have a mile or more to add to it just in Bighorn. In Horsethief(HTC) on the 22nd of this month we are pushing virgin and doing clean up. We have three mazes that are just blank on the map. Montana Maze is blank, the L1 Maze is blank(Doing a little clean this month on the 22nd, but it is a big cave), the White Dirt Maze is blank.

[hewhocaves]

I'm tempted to say that someone doing a line plot just wants to scoop as much cave as possible.
...but I'm not going to. (though I've seen people rationalize it that way before)

Why you would do a line plot and no sketch? in no particular order.

1) you've already sketched it, but you lost the last few survey points and need to backtrack to an existing point. Also happens when new cave is found in an known cave.

2) you have a time constraint. this is the "austin entrance" scenario. you're short on time because of some real world reason (usually political) and you need to find out if a cave goes somewhere (usually to a connection or entrance)

3)you're leaving permanant stations for a future sketcher (maybe the sketcher missed the day and you don't want to bail on the trip).

4) you don't HAVE a sketcher. (if only there were some massive forum where you could contact other cavers...)

feel free to add more.

Now, the reasons why you should sketch while you map.

1) You're already there, for Chrissakes. you might as well do a thorough job.

2) If you don't do it, someone will have to come after you and do it. They will undoubtedly ask why you didn't follow rule #1.

3) if the cave is really really short, the sketching time should be really really short.

4) A completed map ALWAYS looks much better than a stick drawing. People looking at it will have a better chance to understand what you are talking about.

Lastly, why you should do a GOOD survey (also, why some caves need resurveying)

1) Cave maps have many purposes. A well drawn cave map can tell a lot to a person who has never been in that cave.

2) Accuracy is essential. An inaccurate cave map is essentially a work of fiction. Even worse, it can result in being lost, injury or just having a bad time underground.

3) Cave maps are works of art. Bad cave maps are the equivalent of nursrey school scrawl. Fine for their creators' fridge, but not much else. Good cave maps are frameable and are great conversation pieces.

Basically, like all things, you want to do a good job. Fourty years ago, standards were different. Fourty years in the future, technology may be such that we're resurveying everything from scratch again. One of the great things about some of the maps drawn in the 1950s is that some of those people really *got it*. You look at a Bernie Smeltzer map from 1953 and it's excellent even by today's standards.

Lol... and if all this makes me an elitist pig, then... look for me at the Swine and Dine at OTR.

*oink*
john

[barcelonacvr]

note to Mods... umm... wouldn't this thread be better placed in the Surveying section of the forum(s)??? just wondering.

Ya..sorry abou that.It was early and my eyes would not let me see that forum header

[cob]

ok, swimming against the stream here...

If they do nothing more than a line plot, at least we know where it ends up at. Not enuf for you? Go back and do it yourself.

tom

Tom-

I was with you up until your last sentence. Doesn't your statement assume that the cave can tolerate the traffic of another survey crew slathering about?

Why impact the cave twice (or more)?

AA

Aaron, I am coming at this from a real world point of view: They are going to go in, sketcher or no. (how many times have I sent out a first time sketcher and what they came back with was little more than a line plot?) If they come out with a line plot and a decent description of the cave, maybe we don't have to go back?

The scenario I had in mind was this: I have been running this little project down in Shannon Co the past few years and there have been wkends where I have had up to 30 cavers there... and 6 sketchers. I gotta do something with these people. I point them in a direction, say, "Go, find." and if at the end of the day they come back with a solid location on a 125' nerd hole w/ a line plot and a decent description... Good. It's done. We don't have to go back. I can turn that in and I'll bet Scott would accept it gladly. And I can say "Thank you very much, job well done."

Admittedly, your concern is a valid one, and I am not recomenndeing doing line plots only (how many 50-125' nerd holes have I mapped? I lost count years ago) but I am not going to tell someone that their contribution is not worthwhile. I may tell them it is not enuf, and explain why we need to go back (so that hopefully they will make the judgement call a little earlier)(or better yet... BECOME A SKETCHER!!! HIP HIP HOORAY!!!) ALL contributions are worthwhile. All data (assuming it is good data) is valuable.

John, I may be "elitist" in my own personal endeavors (or not, Patti K. I am not) and I may push those I know to do the best they can, and while I agree with everything you said, we all gotta start somewhere.

I am loathe to belittle others for their efforts.

tom

[hewhocaves]

John, I may be "elitist" in my own personal endeavors (or not, Patti K. I am not) and I may push those I know to do the best they can, and while I agree with everything you said, we all gotta start somewhere.

tom

i can agree with that sentiment. as i understood the original post, these were experienced surveyors who, for whichever reason, decided against a sketch.

and i've always told people: if you want to be a shoe-in for the cool exploration trips, then learn to sketch. there's always a need for sketchers.

and we stay drier, too. lol.

john

[cob]

and we stay drier, too. lol.

john

and have to keep our hands clean as well. heehee...

[Evan G]

Tlaloc (Nuhualpilli) wrote:

Some of the sketches in that part of the cave are not great but at least somebody actually surveyed it rather than just talking about it.

I have the survey data for the cave and I agree about the sketches. Pete didn't tell me about the lead until a couple of months ago. Again you are right, I would rather not talk about it but GRD. But as you know the best times to hit the river in Great X is end of Aug thru Oct. Talk about short surveying season.

[Evan G]

BTW- Under the extreme conditions of Great X, the people that did the original survey; “my hat is off to them". The speed sketching that was done is a Rembrandt under those difficult conditions.

[cob]

BTW- Under the extreme conditions of Great X, the people that did the original survey; “my hat is off to them". The speed sketching that was done is a Rembrandt under those difficult conditions.

I can only imagine...

[ian mckenzie]

The caves are maze like so certainly a lot of time needs to be taken to survey. The maps as well only show the main routes to areas and probably 2/3 of the cave is not shown.

If it's Moira Cave you're talking about, it sure would be great to have a surveyed length to dispell the rumors of 8km of passage (or are they rumors?).