Why are you mapping caves?

[Aaron Addison]

I've made my points and have nothing more to offer this conversation on the comparison.

I will share a parting thought... I wonder how many cave photographers that have been lucky enough to make money off photos turn around and share that revenue with the folks that helped them take the shot?

[Crockett]

Cave cartographers can produce a map of a cave they have never entered or seen and use the work of people they have never meet.

The nature of cave photography requires the photographer to enter the cave and use mostly their own work.

I could tighten up this sloppy contrasting statement but it's late on the mountain.

[Aaron Addison]

Cave cartographers can produce a map of a cave they have never entered or seen and use the work of people they have never meet.

The nature of cave photography requires the photographer to enter the cave and use mostly their own work.

I could tighten up this sloppy contrasting statement but it's late on the mountain.

Of course they can, and I can print pictures from a cave photographers camera. My comments have been in the context of someone that actually goes in to caves to map and then drafts maps from said data. I realize that this is not universally the case.

AA

[NWSurveyor]

I have to disagree with the comparison of photography and cartography. Unless you take pictures for the purpose of assisting in the mapping effort, then photography should be considered a form of art (in the context of this thread). The photographer is considered the artist regardless of assistance by others. Unless there is an agreement stating otherwise, they would be entitled to the credit. I don't think cartographers map for artistic reasons. But then we go back to the subject question...

[Extremeophile]

I've had exactly the situation Crockett describes ... I've drafted maps from survey notes where I've had little to no involvement in the actual survey. At the end of the process my name is associated with the copyright, but I certainly feel that everyone that contributed to the survey owns a bit of the map. I've been selling copies of some of these maps at grotto meetings, but since my feeling is that the bulk of the value of a map is the time and effort that went into the survey, I've been donating all the proceeds to cave conservation or rescue groups.

This idea that maps belong to the entire caving community, or at least the surveyors, can create some dilemmas. You will never get consensus about whether, or to what extent, a map should be shared or distributed. I have definitely heard from some surveyors that they don't want it distributed at all, and others that have no problem openly sharing it with the organized caving community. The decision to share maps is not very different than the decision to share cave locations. Most cavers will not blindly share anything that is asked from a total stranger, even if they are a grotto or NSS member. Some relationship building may be needed from the person wanting the information. This shouldn't be interpreted as an attitude of elitism. Usually it's simply a concern about safety and conservation.

I think the analogy to cave photography is mostly valid. I don't think 100% of the value of a photograph is in the creative input. Someone paid for the equipment, someone carried the equipment into the cave, and very often I think many people contribute to the creative composition of the end photo. So is pressing the shutter button all that counts? I've had people take photos with my camera gear after a tutorial on how to set exposure and operate the flash, and I've given them the credit, but very often photos are just as much a team effort as cave mapping.

[Aaron Addison]

I don't think cartographers map for artistic reasons.

wow. guess we should shut down the cartography salon.

AA

[LukeM]

I don't think cartographers map for artistic reasons.

wow. guess we should shut down the cartography salon.

AA

I'm not aware of anyone who creates maps because the salon exists. Maybe it motivates them to finish up old maps, but surely the original intention for a cave map is nearly always for purposes other than competition. It's also not obvious that cartographers submitting to the salon have to be mapping for artistic reasons.

[Extremeophile]

I don't think cartographers map for artistic reasons.

wow. guess we should shut down the cartography salon.

AA

I'm not aware of anyone who creates maps because the salon exists. Maybe it motivates them to finish up old maps, but surely the original intention for a cave map is nearly always for purposes other than competition. It's also not obvious that cartographers submitting to the salon have to be mapping for artistic reasons.

About the only cave maps that lack artistic qualities are line plots. Once you start drawing, aesthetics come into play.

[Martin Sluka]

From the beginning I started with this "job" the cave maps were made as documentation of existence of the cave or cave system (I found a big cave! Show us the map of it!) and as very important aid for exploration. Partial maps were made by different teams usually. So it was and is far from any art. :)

[LukeM]

wow. guess we should shut down the cartography salon.

AA

I'm not aware of anyone who creates maps because the salon exists. Maybe it motivates them to finish up old maps, but surely the original intention for a cave map is nearly always for purposes other than competition. It's also not obvious that cartographers submitting to the salon have to be mapping for artistic reasons.

About the only cave maps that lack artistic qualities are line plots. Once you start drawing, aesthetics come into play.

I agree, but we're talking about intentions, not the end result. I didn't think that Aaron's hyperbole was justified.

[UnderGroundEarth]

I've watched my boyfriend draft a lot of maps, all the old fashioned way -- by hand. It IS a work of art. He takes a lot of time making sure the lines are all even and adding in all the features of the caves. He even hand draws his scales, legend, and arrows.

[Extremeophile]

we're talking about intentions, not the end result.

The exact same could be said of photography. Many photos are taken to just document a time and place, and there may be little in the way of artistic intent. Again, I think there are more similarities between cartography and photography than differences.

[Extremeophile]

To answer the original question ... probably the main reason we map caves is to impress our friends. It doesn't seem to attract the ladies. Though it does appear to be working for Jason, but he apparently is the exception.

[LukeM]

we're talking about intentions, not the end result.

The exact same could be said of photography. Many photos are taken to just document a time and place, and there may be little in the way of artistic intent. Again, I think there are more similarities between cartography and photography than differences.

If we're talking about cave photography and cave cartography I tend to agree. Many (not all) cave photographers simply want to document where they were in a clear and technically competent way, in the same way that good drafting is clear and technically competent.

[NWSurveyor]

I'll agree that maps can be artistic, but is that the reason you're mapping caves? The question is about purpose. Photographic comparisons aside - here is a list of what has been posted so far as responses to the question of purpose (IMO all excellent):
-Because no one has mapped them yet.
-Because it’s fun.
-Because maps are primary management tools.
-Maps build good landowner relationships.
-Because the slower you travel in a cave, the more you will see.
-Recording speleogenesis, geology, biology, archeology, cultural resources, hard to find passages, obscure entrances…
-Because speleobopping is for spelunkers.
-Because they don't map themselves.
-A navigational aid for caving.
-As documentation of existence of the cave or cave system.
-To impress your friends.

Now here is a list of responses to why people keep maps secret:
-Maintain control of the map.
-Protect unqualified cavers from injury.
-Protect cave environment from irresponsible cavers wallowing around.
-To control who can go into the cave.
-Greed, ego, control.
-You can get it from the land owner/manager (if you can get it).
-It’s my map.
-Because [in some states] the landowner or land manager has the right to make it so.
-Distrust of agencies.

And reasons posted for sharing maps:
-With a proper map the impact to a cave would be lower.
-Caving without map is more dangerous than with.
-Keeping a map from a caver who explores the cave anyway, solves nothing.
-Without the map you will not know where the PIRATE TREASURE is buried. (I like this one!)
-Maps can establish safe caving practices for the parts of the cave that are in danger. Trails, and agreements to stay on trail, work far better than holding back a map.
-Withholding the map makes it harder to navigate the cave and slows down rescues. If the cave is publicly accessible then holding back the map doesn't increase safety at all. There are other ways to encourage cave safety that are more effective. Lack of a map only means that cavers need to be more methodical and make more trips into the cave to get to the same points.
-They can be used to navigate, for rescue planning (and response), or even to help photographers find places to focus their efforts. But they can also be used for science, inventory, management activities, watershed understanding, and dozens of other uses.
- Proceeds from maps sold can be donated to cave conservation or rescue groups.
-Very important aid for exploration.
-Cave maps can be framed and hung as art

What this seems to show is that the reasons for sharing maps greatly outweigh any reason for keeping them private. Just saying...