Why are you mapping caves?

[tncaver]

NWSurveyor. Great response except for this one...To prevent double human impact to cave environment.

[NWSurveyor]

Good point. I've removed that one.

[John Lovaas]

NW-

In your 'secrecy' subsection, you fail to acknowledge that a map may be 'secret' because the landowner or land manager has the right to make it so. Land owners and managers have far more rights and responsibilities than you do as a visitor to their land.

Referencing back to your original post, image resolution is not the same as secrecy.

As to a map not being available to caver rescue personnel- could you provide a single verifiable example?

Your apparent reluctance to communicate with landowners or land managers as to the availability of a map speaks volumes more about your personal ethics than it does of any individual cartographer.

Do you ever speak to a land owner or land manager to access a cave?

'And all the world is biscuit shaped, it's just for me to feed my face...'

[NWSurveyor]

In your 'secrecy' subsection, you fail to acknowledge that a map may be 'secret' because the landowner or land manager has the right to make it so. Land owners and managers have far more rights and responsibilities than you do as a visitor to their land.

edited - thanks!

Referencing back to your original post, image resolution is not the same as secrecy.

I disagree when resolution relates to whether or not you can read the map.

As to a map not being available to caver rescue personnel- could you provide a single verifiable example?

Maybe you missed where I stated the lists were from responses in this thread. I didn't make the original comment, but I agree with it. It's enough to know the potential exists for a rescue to be inhibited by the lack of an existing map that has been kept secret. To that I'll add that, in my personal experience while on a rescue team, the local grotto wasn't willing to share ANY maps with the team when asked.

Your apparent reluctance to communicate with landowners or land managers as to the availability of a map speaks volumes more about your personal ethics than it does of any individual cartographer.

Whoa, attacking my ethics now? Dude I'm not sure how you interpreted that from anything I've said. I did say that this was in the context of public caves. In my state a public cave is - open to the public (not the same as a tourist cave). The map I was trying to acquire was for a cave on National Forest land and there is no requirement here for me to request permission from the NF. Only a few locked caves on NF land require checking out a key, but they don't interview you. You just sign the key out and back in. The Rescue Team closely coordinated with the National Forest and even they only had a few maps produced by/for USGS back in the 1960's. They did give us topo maps with coordinates for caves in our response area. All of the old USGS maps they had were also available for public viewing at my State Lands Office in the capitol city.

I'd also add that if this individual had given the full resolution map to the National Forest Service, I would have been more than happy to go through them for it. Happier, actually.

-Mike

[John Lovaas]

NW-

Unless a post has been deleted, the only person who has introduced the necessity of cave rescue personnel having maps on file is you.

As to ethics- well, this whole thread rotates around ethics- beliefs in who is entitled to what. As to your participation in high angle rescue teams and NCRC training? Just like your NSS membership, those qualifications don't entitle you to anything- but do come with opportunities and responsibilities.

As to your cave rescue team's inability to get copies of maps from the local grotto- are they on your callout list? That would be the only time a rescue team would really need a map, wouldn't it?

[NWSurveyor]

It's hard to understand someone's motivations. But some of the excuses I've heard don't make sense.

1) "I want to protect the cave." -- if you wanted to protect the cave you would work on establishing safe caving practices for the parts of the cave that are in danger. Trails, and agreements to stay on trail, work far better than holding back a map.

2) "You're going to get hurt or get someone else hurt" -- withholding the map makes it harder to navigate the cave and slows down rescues. If the cave is publicly accessible then holding back the map doesn't increase safety at all. There are other ways to encourage cave safety that are more effective. Lack of a map only means that cavers need to be more methodical and make more trips into the cave to get to the same points.

3) "It's my map, I don't have to release it, and I swear to you that I won't ever release it." -- Fine, that's your right. I have validation that your map will never go to the community from you. I no longer am bound not to do survey of my own in the cave. Since you have sworn never to release the map it is effectively equivalent that there is no map and I can go forth and make one for other cavers to use/contribute to.

[NWSurveyor]

As to ethics- well, this whole thread rotates around ethics- beliefs in who is entitled to what. As to your participation in high angle rescue teams and NCRC training? Just like your NSS membership, those qualifications don't entitle you to anything- but do come with opportunities and responsibilities.

To put this into context, the point was to you not wanting to share a map with someone who might be irresponsible and was just going to wallow around in the cave. Being in a Grotto, a member of the MRA, and certified cave rescue through NCRC, I think, would speak to responsible caving. However, I disagree with the idea that I have to prove ANYTHING to you to get a copy of the map. It is not about entitlement. It is about ego and the idea that some feel the need to control.

As to your cave rescue team's inability to get copies of maps from the local grotto- are they on your callout list? That would be the only time a rescue team would really need a map, wouldn't it?

They are not on the list. The Grottos here don't have qualified rescue personnel that can legally take part in rescues managed by the State emergency management system. Only qualified people can participate, i.e. rescue teams that are accredited through the MRA. Grotto members would have to become members of the rescue team to participate in a rescue - in this State. That is not to say that Grotto members aren't capable and I hope most have the ability to self rescue. As soon as it goes to 911 and a County Sheriff takes control, they will ask the State for an emergency response number, then it's only certified (MRA) members that can participate. These members are already on file and covered under the State L&I Insurance for the operation. Your local area may be managed differently. It goes without saying that to withhold maps from rescue teams adds risk to the team and to the victim. I don't see how that is acceptable on any level. Rescue teams don't want to just sit and wait to get a call then study the map at the entrance. There is typically a cave rescue individual or group within the team who makes it a point to study all potential risks for cave rescue in the response area and to identify individual cave rescue responses, operations, and systems as best they can to be prepared for that call.

[John Lovaas]

NW- your post may illustrate another point that may not have been covered- distrust of agencies.

Adam Sampson's original post followed your discussion of maps and cave rescue- so I tend to see his comment as an agreement with your position.

Of course, putting trust in a map- and the interpretation of it- is a kind of assumption.

[NWSurveyor]

I agree & added your comment to the list. thanks John.
-Mike

[Crockett]

Distrust of agencies is fomented when substantial resources are directed at their equipment, training, employees and elaborate incident response system, but a cave map, which might be of great value, must be donated by volunteers who made it with their own time, skill, and equipment. Of course that has already been said in this conversation. My cave mapping on public lands has been done with mutual respect and support between the partners. We did have an agency that asked for cave locations with owner information so they could contact the owners and coerce them into closing their caves. That didn't work out. Maybe the regime you work for should budget for cave map acquisition. Then more mappers might add "to sell" to their reasons.

[NWSurveyor]

Crockett, you bring up something that, of all the reasons to keep a map secret, might just be the single most important and legitimate reason.

In my home state you have to be a registered professional land surveyor (PLS) to prepare a topographic map. In Oregon you can be either a PLS or professional engineer (PE). I know many other states (if not all) have similar rules and cave maps are considered topographic maps. It was said in an earlier post that maps produced for scientific purposes are exempt from these rules. I believe that to be true, (though I'm trying to verify it to be certain) but I think that changes the moment a person makes profit/gains or even just makes it available for any purpose other than the originally identified scientific purpose - if there was one. I'm not trying to pick a fight or say anyone is doing anything illegal, but I think an argument could be made that a person is breaking the law if they produce a cave map and make it available to the public and they are not a PE or PLS licensed in the state the map is delineating the topographic feature within. Everything I produce as a PLS I do so with the intent that it will stand up in court. If I were to map a cave (I am kind of getting interested in this) I would stamp the map and provide statements of accuracy, process, equipment used, liability, and purpose on the face of it. Something that I believe could stand up in court against, say, a lawsuit claiming that someone rappelled off their rope because my map labeled a drop shorter than it was. If this is true and you map a cave and keep it to yourself, then you are just a hobbyist and wouldn't be breaking these rules. I admit that is weak, but it is possible and courts, though they may not fault you entirely, may lay partial fault on the map.

So I'm curious, have you guys looked into these rules and what are your interpretations?

From the Revised Codes of Washington (State statutes)

RCW 18.43.020
(7) "Professional land surveyor" means a person who, by reason of his or her special knowledge of the mathematical and physical sciences and principles and practices of land surveying, which is acquired by professional education and practical experience, is qualified to practice land surveying and as attested to by his or her legal registration as a professional land surveyor.

(9) "Practice of land surveying" means assuming responsible charge of the surveying of land for the establishment of corners, lines, boundaries, and monuments, the laying out and subdivision of land, the defining and locating of corners, lines, boundaries, and monuments of land after they have been established, the survey of land areas for the purpose of determining the topography thereof, the making of topographical delineations and the preparing of maps and accurate records thereof, when the proper performance of such services requires technical knowledge and skill.

[Chads93GT]

Someone call the cops on every surveyor in Missouri. Or the CRF for that matter. Cave maps aren't topographical maps. You aren't going to get sued because your cave map had a depth labeled wrong. You go caving at your own risk. Of you have to rely on a cave map to go caving then stay the hell out of the cave or go slowly and learn the cave. People who put their trust in cave maps blow my mind.

[caverdan]

I must say
A. Caves are not land....but holes within it.

2. If you make your own map, you can name stuff whatever you want.

C. If people won't and don't share....then they shouldn't be surprised if someone resurveys "their" cave......especially if it's on public land.

[Crockett]

I am really sorry, since you first posted I had been under the impression that you knew something about mapping caves. That was presumptuous of me. We could agree to take this up again in the future when you have had a chance to orient. I am hardly an expert, more like a wounded veteran of the craft, but I can direct you to some excellent resources for learning cave cartography.

In the meantime, to take you presumptions to their illogical conclusions - if you pass one of these potentially illegal maps through your PLS hands as an agent of the maker, and you are compensated in some way (like reimbursement of expenses or provision of equipment for rescue using said map) then does that make you a criminal element for trafficing in illegal cave maps for pay and does it threaten your PLS status?

I wasn't going to bring it up but the last time I was in Oregon you were not allowed to pump your own gasoline. It had to be done by a presumably trained, certified, and licensed professional pumper. Based on that experience what you say about cave mapping in Oregon may be true.

But to be honest my first reaction to your statements was to chuckle.

Crockett, you bring up something that, of all the reasons to keep a map secret, might just be the single most important and legitimate reason.

In my home state you have to be a registered professional land surveyor (PLS) to prepare a topographic map. In Oregon you can be either a PLS or professional engineer (PE). I know many other states (if not all) have similar rules and cave maps are considered topographic maps. It was said in an earlier post that maps produced for scientific purposes are exempt from these rules. I believe that to be true, (though I'm trying to verify it to be certain) but I think that changes the moment a person makes profit/gains or even just makes it available for any purpose other than the originally identified scientific purpose - if there was one. I'm not trying to pick a fight or say anyone is doing anything illegal, but I think an argument could be made that a person is breaking the law if they produce a cave map and make it available to the public and they are not a PE or PLS licensed in the state the map is delineating the topographic feature within. Everything I produce as a PLS I do so with the intent that it will stand up in court. If I were to map a cave (I am kind of getting interested in this) I would stamp the map and provide statements of accuracy, process, equipment used, liability, and purpose on the face of it. Something that I believe could stand up in court against, say, a lawsuit claiming that someone rappelled off their rope because my map labeled a drop shorter than it was. If this is true and you map a cave and keep it to yourself, then you are just a hobbyist and wouldn't be breaking these rules. I admit that is weak, but it is possible and courts, though they may not fault you entirely, may lay partial fault on the map.

So I'm curious, have you guys looked into these rules and what are your interpretations?

From the Revised Codes of Washington (State statutes)

RCW 18.43.020
(7) "Professional land surveyor" means a person who, by reason of his or her special knowledge of the mathematical and physical sciences and principles and practices of land surveying, which is acquired by professional education and practical experience, is qualified to practice land surveying and as attested to by his or her legal registration as a professional land surveyor.

(9) "Practice of land surveying" means assuming responsible charge of the surveying of land for the establishment of corners, lines, boundaries, and monuments, the laying out and subdivision of land, the defining and locating of corners, lines, boundaries, and monuments of land after they have been established, the survey of land areas for the purpose of determining the topography thereof, the making of topographical delineations and the preparing of maps and accurate records thereof, when the proper performance of such services requires technical knowledge and skill.

[NZcaver]

I've helped map a couple of caves in Oregon. Hopefully that doesn't make me an accessory to naughtiness? I also tried to pump my own gas one time. I'm such a rebel. Funny thing is full service was still cheaper than self service in surrounding states. I enjoyed living in Oregon. It's my second favorite no-sales-tax state.