Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

[wyandottecaver]

Roppel:
I think we do differ on a key point. I believe landowners have the say so on access because they do in fact own the physical property. The map? Survey notes? trip descriptions? Those are the products of others cash, sweat and labor. We may consider landowner wishes in the interest of good relations and keeping access, but they have no inherent rights of control for the labor and products of others unless that was specified as part of the access priviledge.

Dean:
I think people still equate maps and locations as equal. They are not. I agree with others that maps increase safety, not decrease it. Even if we ignore the fact that they still need location data and assume maps will drive increased visitation, the question is this: Is that bad? Yes more people will eventually equal more accidents. It will also equal a larger user base, more people who LIKE caves, andd more people interested in protecting access, which will give cavers more voice...especially on public property. By making access to maps, which are a key safety tool, easier, we will help safety not hurt it. Locations dont help anything except visitation.

*edit* Everyone knows it's those reckless cavers who don't use string that are the safety risk

[Extremeophile]

In my first couple years as a caver I spent a lot of time at Sloans Valley cave in southern Kentucky. Early on, a group of us got a poster sized version of Lou Simpson's excellent map. The cave is 24 miles long with 16 entrances and has some reasonably complicated areas to navigate. Most of the "experienced" cavers in the grotto were content to hang out by the fire, drink beer and tell stories about caving, but it was a challenge to get any of them to show us routes, especially if there were any difficulties (mud, water, crawling, climbing... i.e. caving). My brother, several college friends and I used that laminated map to explore remote areas, devise all types of through trips, and generally learn how to cave and how to read maps. This then developed into a desire to make our own maps and things evolved from there. Access to that map significantly enhanced our awareness, safety and enjoyment. I've never met Lou, but I'm very grateful that he made the map and made it available to other cavers.

[wyandottecaver]

how ironic... see the first post.....

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12798

[LukeM]

Do you want this to happen to caves?

Things I want to happen to caving and caves:
1. Better collaboration on the systematic discovery, exploration, mapping and documentation of caves.
2. Improvement in the skills, training and experience level within the caving community.
3. Improved trust and fewer personal attacks between cavers.
4. Enhanced protection of caves through public education rather than gating and secrecy.

Couldn't have said it better myself. As it is, I feel like it'll be another 20 years before I actually understand the ins and outs of cave exploration in my area. 90% of the information crucial to making new discoveries and understanding local cave systems is locked up in older folks heads that are in danger of dropping out of the scene as they get older. I need to pick it up in nuggets here and there and by rummaging through 20 year old publications when I get the chance. Sure, that's the way it's always been done, but it sucks, and isn't conducive to collaboration and understanding, and it's certainly outdated given what's possible these days. With more centralized resources I and other new cavers on the scene would be more knowledgeable and more able to contribute in meaningful ways. This includes being able to view maps.

Secrecy can be a useful tool, but I see it abused all too often among cavers. Secrecy + politics is something I never expected, but it's an all too present reality.

[BrianC]

I rate caves on the kick your ass factor. "Just how exhausted were you after that trip?" , "Ive never been on a harder trip in my life."

You're clearly not doing it right because caving is not a sport, so you shouldn't be getting tired. Its people like you that are ruining caving for the rest of us who are into the mystical experience.

What Ever!

[BrianC]

In my first couple years as a caver I spent a lot of time at Sloans Valley cave in southern Kentucky.

The Post Office to Garbage pit trip via spaghetti junction Halegtite Heaven and Camel Crawl, was always a good trip! Many Thanksgivings with Tom Crocket and lots of folks and good times were had. If you were taken through that cave as a tourist (someone helping you through), you would not have had the tremendous navigational knowledge you have gained. Like I said before, after gaining much knowledge about a cave then looking at a map will give you a real understanding of what the cave has to offer. That map would offer absolutely nothing without you first knowing that cave. That map would have gotten you so lost if you first tried navigating with it before you knew that cave. Even really detailed maps that show how the different levels of a cave won't make sense without knowing the cave.

[BrianC]

how ironic... see the first post.....

http://forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12798

This is what I'm saying for sure. Folks need to know how to cave before jumping into complex caves. The map created the interest!

[trogman]

Maps will generate the interest, and without the proper training, get some into trouble.

There are two sides to this argument. I doubt that very many people will decide to venture into a cave simply from the inspiration of looking at a map. How often do you take a trip in your car because you saw something on a road map, as opposed to getting a road map after you've decided where you want to go. I think there's a stronger argument that widespread availability of maps is more likely to reduce rescues, by cavers knowing where they're going and what hazards to expect, than it is to increase rescues by enticing the inexperienced into places they shouldn't go.

Maybe I am not typical, but I clearly recall my early caving days when I would pore over a book of maps and drool at the thought of exploring the caves they depicted. The maps were my primary source of inspiration and desire to see a particular cave. But that's just me.
Come to think of it, I still do that now.

Trogman :hemet:

[BrianC]

Maps will generate the interest, and without the proper training, get some into trouble.

There are two sides to this argument. I doubt that very many people will decide to venture into a cave simply from the inspiration of looking at a map. How often do you take a trip in your car because you saw something on a road map, as opposed to getting a road map after you've decided where you want to go. I think there's a stronger argument that widespread availability of maps is more likely to reduce rescues, by cavers knowing where they're going and what hazards to expect, than it is to increase rescues by enticing the inexperienced into places they shouldn't go.

Maybe I am not typical, but I clearly recall my early caving days when I would pore over a book of maps and drool at the thought of exploring the caves they depicted. The maps were my primary source of inspiration and desire to see a particular cave. But that's just me.
Come to think of it, I still do that now.

Trogman :hemet:

Exactly! Although you probably had mentors, otherwise how did you acquire the maps?

[David Grimes]

I seriously doubt the map was the only thing that interested them in Sullivan cave. The Internet is full of pictures, descriptions, and videos of that particular cave. At least their inspiration sent them to cavechat to seek help.

[Extremeophile]

In my first couple years as a caver I spent a lot of time at Sloans Valley cave in southern Kentucky.

The Post Office to Garbage pit trip via spaghetti junction Halegtite Heaven and Camel Crawl, was always a good trip! Many Thanksgivings with Tom Crocket and lots of folks and good times were had. If you were taken through that cave as a tourist (someone helping you through), you would not have had the tremendous navigational knowledge you have gained. Like I said before, after gaining much knowledge about a cave then looking at a map will give you a real understanding of what the cave has to offer. That map would offer absolutely nothing without you first knowing that cave. That map would have gotten you so lost if you first tried navigating with it before you knew that cave. Even really detailed maps that show how the different levels of a cave won't make sense without knowing the cave.

Maybe it wasn't clear in my story, but we were not led through the cave. We used the map as the only piece of information to find many routes, including those through Grand Spaghetti Junction. My favorite through-trip was from Minton Hollow out the Great Rock Sink. That was a long and complex trip, and nobody showed us the way. The generally traveled route from Post Office to Garbage Pit doesn't go through GSJ, Caramel Crawl/Junction or Helictite Heaven... or is this a test?

I've visited a great many complex caves without the benefit of a guide, and have been able to go virtually anywhere I wanted with nothing more than a map. I also use a watch with a digital compass that is a tremendous help in navigation. I enjoy and prefer to go on trips with "locals" that are familiar with the cave, but when they aren't available I'll go anyway.

[wyandottecaver]

how ironic... see the first post.....

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12798

This is what I'm saying for sure. Folks need to know how to cave before jumping into complex caves. The map created the interest!

Yes, it created the interest that led to those people getting connected with the right resources instead of just blundering about.

[BrianC]

The generally traveled route from Post Office to Garbage Pit doesn't go through GSJ, Caramel Crawl/Junction or Helictite Heaven... or is this a test?

No!, not a test, but If you wanted to show someone Screemin Willies and all the cool stuff in the cave you did. Of course, we also only went when the lake level was at its lowest in dead winter and usually about 15 F. outside. I can't see the map getting you through to Minton hollow unless you knew the cave well first, it it very difficult, and the map complicated.

[BrianC]

how ironic... see the first post.....

http://forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12798

This is what I'm saying for sure. Folks need to know how to cave before jumping into complex caves. The map created the interest!

Yes, it created the interest that led to those people getting connected with the right resources instead of just blundering about.

[David Grimes]

Brian I will point out that if you do a quick search of Google for Sullivan Cave you do not get a site with any old maps to draw your interest in you get:

1. Sullivan Cave -- the IKC's first nature preserve
ikc.caves.org/sullivan/sullivan.htm
2. Cavechat.org • View topic - Sullivan's Cave
www.forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6482
3. SULLIVAN CAVE MGMT PLAN
ikc.caves.org/sullivan/sullmgmt.htm
4. Sullivan Cave - YouTube
www.youtube.com/watch?v=dC7Knsmitl0
5. Sullivan's Cave, Kids Trip, February 2009 caving spelunking ...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtB8hXGUvTs
6. Sullivan Cave-IN - a set on Flickr
www.flickr.com/photos/elliot_stahl/sets ... 198682345/
7. Purdue Outing Club - CAVING
www.purdueoutingclub.org/caving
8. Desert Survivor: Mock Rescue-Sullivan's Cave
desertsurvivor.blogspot.com/2009/.../mock-rescue-sullivans-cave.ht..
9. Sullivan Cave | Facebook
www.facebook.com/pages/Sullivan-Cave/172836309445468
10. Sullivan Cave - Indiana's 3rd longest cave
www.thepocbook.com/v/caving/2000_oct_sullivan/

Even if they did get a map these websites were what likely caused the interest with the pictures, videos, and descriptions.