Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

[LukeM]

Roppel, I want to thank you for being the first person in the "NO" crowd to actually address the fact that there's no location data associated with the maps we're talking about, though a "default stance of caution" doesn't really explain in practical terms what the danger is to those of us wondering. We could apply a default stance of caution to a lot of things we do, like creating the maps in the first place, or even visiting caves at all.

As for maps generating interest in certain caves, who here asks landowners if they may publish photos of their caves online? If you don't, should we be worried about generating interest in these caves? After all, what's more enticing than an awesome cave photo? These crazy cavers often list the county they were in alongside their cave photos, and in many cases the mountain, cove or valley where it is. There are thousands of those published online and in print, and I don't think the landowner is ever asked if photos of their cave may be broadly distributed in this way. Add to this the fact that we're talking about password protected, NSS-member only access and the idea that there will be a surge of damaging interest in certain caves (compared to other interest-generating sources) is completely unconvincing.

Finally, if convention guidebooks aren't broad distribution I don't know what is. How many thousands of these have been disseminated across the country and the globe? You may argue that these only feature well visited, non-sensitive caves, but I've seen plenty of privately owned, rarely visited, sensitive caves in NSS guidebooks. I sense a cognitive dissonance among members of this discussion on this point.

Can we all get on the same page with the following ideas?

1) Maps are already widely disseminated among NSS members who choose to discover them.
2) Often times people - even those with no organized caving credentials - receive maps when asking for them on CaveChat.
3) This will theoretically be a password protected, NSS owned and moderated resource.
4) Those submitting will be doing so under their own identity and will still be subject to the forum's TOS and copyright law.

Of course, the old same system will be in place for accessing caves. To find them, you'll still have to ask around and interact with "real" cavers, or you'll have to have access to restricted sources. In other words, for the vast majority of caves you'll still have to go through the usual channels to gain access, and could be turned down for whatever reason. I'm still waiting for someone to point out how knowing what county a cave is in or being interested in a cave gives you the ability to visit it but I won't hold my breath.

Anyway, I'm off to scan detailed satellite imagery of private property for karst features.

[BrianC]

Make this as simple as possible, ask the question of the BOG, and let that be that!

[DeanWiseman]

Make this as simple as possible, ask the question of the BOG, and let that be that!

I can't speak specifically for the Directorship, but I can speak from personal experience that many (and many within the NSS) will be vehemently opposed to such a resource--at least for now. It's clear from this notably unscientific poll sampling that we live in a House Divided. That said, as a Director, I personally would like to see how you folks can innovate on the idea. I do think there is room for improvement, and that in some way this is the Future.

Considering the way things are right now, and taking account what's happened in the past, about the only way I can personally see this working in some agreeable way for all concerned is that if the resource only lists caves which are "open" to visitation, but have some sort of access-management infrastructure in place: gates... property manager in immediate proximity to the cave entrance, etc. Case in point: In light of the recent events at Ellison's Cave, I'm extremely uncomfortable publishing or disseminating any more information about such caves, even if they are on public property and there is no specific visitation restriction. There are just too many folks out there who aren't taking the risks seriously enough. We obviously cannot withhold information which is already out there in the Public Domain, but it's clearly not enough at this point in time to put warnings and build kiosks and signage.

I know some of you will say we can't (or we shouldn't try to) stop people from getting themselves killed, but I would personally hate to be part of the mechanism which fosters it. I have dedicated my professional life to doing things which prevent avoidable death and suffering, and I see no reason to not choose the same philosophy in our Society--allowing enjoyment of caves but remaining vigilant and insisting on best practices. What I really hope arises from this discussion is innovation and new ideas which will allow for maximally sustainable and safe cave access.

It's a good idea... but it needs refinement.


Respectfully,

-Dean


Dean Wiseman
NSS#32690 RL
Member, NSS Board of Directors

[Roppelcaver]

Dean effectively states the position I would be comfortable with -- only those caves with open access and/or some in place control that will not suffer from increased visitation.

I don't accept an earlier arguement that since maps are distributed in other ways anyhow, this more open approach is fine. Increased visitation should always be a factor in consideration of distributing information (read that this does mean I advocate no distribution). We have to also remember that landowners are our partners, willingly or unwillingly, and we need to respect that. I think we forget that too easily. I know I do from time to time in Roppel.

[BrianC]

Mountaineers don't climb Everest without prior training, Scuba divers don't dive without prior training, Cavers should look at these similar activities before getting themselves into trouble! Sure slpunkers will get themselves into local caves to some degree,and if they had a map, then they would surely become rescue-es. Maps will generate the interest, and without the proper training, get some into trouble. That is why it is, and has all ways been the way it is! If someone wants a map, then like some have stated, get involved with grottos or any caving group that can, and will point you in the proper direction. Maps are very technical in nature, and without knowing how to read a cave map, you will get into trouble. Cavers with much map reading knowledge often can't understand what the map is saying.

I want to say that; after many trips into a complex cave, understanding the cave well, then looking at the map, I can finally get an understanding of what the map is showing.

[Extremeophile]

Maps will generate the interest, and without the proper training, get some into trouble.

There are two sides to this argument. I doubt that very many people will decide to venture into a cave simply from the inspiration of looking at a map. How often do you take a trip in your car because you saw something on a road map, as opposed to getting a road map after you've decided where you want to go. I think there's a stronger argument that widespread availability of maps is more likely to reduce rescues, by cavers knowing where they're going and what hazards to expect, than it is to increase rescues by enticing the inexperienced into places they shouldn't go.

That is why it is, and has always been the way it is

It's more likely the way it is because people are inherently resistant to change, and the technology hasn't always been available. The old-school technology of regional and NSS convention guidebooks as a vehicle for distributing cave maps suggests that this is a practice supported by most in the caving community.

My biggest concern with sharing of maps is related to cave conservation, not safety. Many caves have delicate areas that are remote and difficult to find. If the maps were widely available then these areas might see a significant increase in visitation and possibly impact. It's common practice for cartographers to issue different versions of maps with some versions omitting these sensitive areas.

There are pros and cons to this concept, and many details need to be worked out, but I'm in support of some form on restricted area on Cavechat. Dean is correct that there are many in the caving community that will be very opposed to this idea, but then when do we ever come to consensus on anything.

[Extremeophile]

Case in point: In light of the recent events at Ellison's Cave, I'm extremely uncomfortable publishing or disseminating any more information about such caves, even if they are on public property and there is no specific visitation restriction. There are just too many folks out there who aren't taking the risks seriously enough. We obviously cannot withhold information which is already out there in the Public Domain, but it's clearly not enough at this point in time to put warnings and build kiosks and signage.

I'm not sure if that party had a map, but I suspect not. So I'm not sure I understand this being an example of why we need to keep maps away from groups like this. If they had access to a good map then perhaps they wouldn't have rigged in the waterfall. Access to maps that show rigging points, lengths of pitches, number of pitches, etc. is likely to improve safety and preparation more than restricted access to maps keeping the inexperienced out of caves. It seems that this group would have visited Ellisons with or without a map. The only question is whether access to a map would have led to a different outcome.

Climbing topos are widely published and give a detailed account of the technical difficulties and gear needed on climbs. Climbers are safer for having this information than if they venture up onto the face of El Capitan without any prior knowledge.

[BrianC]

Climbing topos are widely published and give a detailed account of the technical difficulties and gear needed on climbs. Climbers are safer for having this information than if they venture up onto the face of El Capitan without any prior knowledge.

Being an old climber before maps were published in many climbing areas, and many first ascents accomplished, I have seen what maps have done to so many pristine climbing areas. Entire areas have been closed to climbing. Do you want this to happen to caves?

[BrianC]

So many newer folks seem to want caving to become a sport. Caving is definitely not a sport! Caves are certainly awesome and in most cases, a pristine environment only meant for people that want to feel that incredible wonderful amazement of mother nature. Caves are not rated and certainly don't take the hordes of sport enthusiasts lightly. When a caver realizes what a privilege it is to see some of the sights and sounds in some of the really cool caves, then they can enjoy what being a caver is all about. Just to participate in exploring caves is a real privilege. A route map with a difficulty level will never work for real cavers!

[Extremeophile]

Do you want this to happen to caves?

Things I want to happen to caving and caves:
1. Better collaboration on the systematic discovery, exploration, mapping and documentation of caves.
2. Improvement in the skills, training and experience level within the caving community.
3. Improved trust and fewer personal attacks between cavers.
4. Enhanced protection of caves through public education rather than gating and secrecy.

Things I don't want to happen:
1. Cave closures.
2. Critical response to this post.

[Chads93GT]

So many newer folks seem to want caving to become a sport. Caving is definitely not a sport! Caves are certainly awesome and in most cases, a pristine environment only meant for people that want to feel that incredible wonderful amazement of mother nature. Caves are not rated and certainly don't take the hordes of sport enthusiasts lightly. When a caver realizes what a privilege it is to see some of the sights and sounds in some of the really cool caves, then they can enjoy what being a caver is all about. Just to participate in exploring caves is a real privilege. A route map with a difficulty level will never work for real cavers!

I rate caves on the kick your ass factor. "Just how exhausted were you after that trip?" , "Ive never been on a harder trip in my life."

[Extremeophile]

I rate caves on the kick your ass factor. "Just how exhausted were you after that trip?" , "Ive never been on a harder trip in my life."

You're clearly not doing it right because caving is not a sport, so you shouldn't be getting tired. Its people like you that are ruining caving for the rest of us who are into the mystical experience.

[Chads93GT]

No, no. this is survey trips I do. sport trips are an entirely different ballgame, and those who think caving isn't a sport.......well.......... cavers dont start caving (most of them) for the scientific aspect. They start because of the fun factor and they move into survey (hopefully) from there.

[Extremeophile]

It's all the people wearing clothes and using lights to explore caves that have turned it into a sport. I prefer to experience caving in its most natural form. But this is a topic for another thread.

[Chads93GT]

It's all the people wearing clothes and using lights to explore caves that have turned it into a sport. I prefer to experience caving in its most natural form. But this is a topic for another thread.