Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Techniques, equipment and issues. Also visit the NSS Survey & Cartography Section.

Moderator: Moderators

Would you be interested in this feature?

Poll ended at Jan 1, 2012 8:50 pm

Yes, I would use and contribute to it.
20
37%
I would probably contribute to it.
1
2%
I would probably use it.
9
17%
Undecided.
4
7%
I do not like the ideal.
20
37%
 
Total votes : 54

Re: Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Postby David Grimes » Jan 19, 2012 3:44 pm

Out of curiousity what informaton do you think should be collected about each map and contributor when they submit a new map? Basically want to know what information you think would be relevant to ask for to use in determining ownership rights and for correct sorting of maps.

What information do you think should be shown to NSS members who are accessing a map? Should the maps be automatically watermarked with Cavechat.org?

Please trown i any other infrmation or recommendations you can think of.
User avatar
David Grimes
Admin
 
Posts: 1297
Joined: Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
Location: Port Richey, Fl / Harrison County, In
NSS #: 59533
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Indiana Underground Society
  

Re: Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Postby BrianFrank » Jan 19, 2012 6:07 pm

Underground Texas Grotto shows maps (no locations), to the public. I wonder if those caves have been impacted because of this.
http://www.utgrotto.org/projects/cbsp.asp
.
All TAG cavers join http://www.SCCI.org. A small price for a GREAT resource.
User avatar
BrianFrank
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 455
Joined: Apr 5, 2011 11:25 am
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Name: Brian
NSS #: 52121
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Dogwood City Grotto
  

Re: Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Postby David Grimes » Jan 19, 2012 6:16 pm

That's a great find Brian. Maybe we have some members here or Texas Cavers who can tell us if they have seen any impact. I will try to contact the grotto personally to see what they have to say about it.
User avatar
David Grimes
Admin
 
Posts: 1297
Joined: Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
Location: Port Richey, Fl / Harrison County, In
NSS #: 59533
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Indiana Underground Society
  

Re: Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Postby LukeM » Jan 19, 2012 7:42 pm

The Northeastern Cave Conservancy posts both maps and the rough locations of all its caves. http://www.necaveconservancy.org/preserves.php?state=NY

Granted, some of them are considered "sacrificial" to the extent that they see heavy use, but not all of them are, and I've never witnessed trash or graffiti problems in those caves. If one of them was particularly sensitive I wouldn't want even its rough location given.

David, what is the reason for having this fall under umbrella of CaveChat and not the official NSS website?
User avatar
LukeM
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 705
Joined: Jan 30, 2008 2:53 pm
Location: Albany, NY
Name: Luke Mazza
NSS #: 59317
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Syracuse University Outing Club
  

Re: Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Postby Aaron Addison » Jan 19, 2012 8:53 pm

BrianFrank wrote:Underground Texas Grotto shows maps (no locations), to the public. I wonder if those caves have been impacted because of this.
http://www.utgrotto.org/projects/cbsp.asp


It is an interesting find. Mostly because the 3rd map down was drawn by (and surveyed by) me. No one ever asked my permission to publish this map on the web. The decision was likely made by the project coordinators, and as the page clearly states, was done with permission of the owner. In this case the owner happens to be a Texas State Park. I would have liked to be asked, but am okay with their effort.

Why am okay with it? Because I know what most do not. The caves of Colorado Bend are not nice. They will never be nice. In addition, they are on public lands and (as you note) no locations given. In my book it is the collection of all these factors that add up to me being "okay" with the posting. It is not just because they do not list location.

Caves on private land are a different story. Caves on pubic/private land that are highly decorated, also different story. You can imagine numerous variations along these lines.

It would be subjective at best, and disastrous at worst to try and develop guidelines for publishing cave maps online. In the end, I guess it is that concern that is still outweighing and perceived benefit from creating the map resource. Maybe I'm just becoming the next generation of "grumpy old man", but would like to think that I am still open to good ideas.

Cheers,

AA
------------------------------
Aaron Addison
Stop and ask yourself - "What is this map for?"
Aaron Addison
Prolific Poster
 
Posts: 180
Joined: Apr 11, 2006 8:03 am
Location: St. Charles, MO
  

Re: Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Postby David Grimes » Jan 19, 2012 9:08 pm

Luke, there is no particular reason for this project to be done under Cavechat. There are however some arguments that make Cavechat a good choice. Cavechat already has a great moderation team available, we have thousands of users (who are active on the internet) to contribute, and I am the only person who is available in the NSS IT team to take on this project. With so many IT projects that really need to be done involving the NSS website they really have enough to keep them busy for quite a while. I volunteered to take on this project if there was enough interest. I also want to add that this is an official NSS website so I don't really think it makes a big difference if it listed as part of Cavechat. I know you were not really implying that it made a difference but I just wanted to point that out.

Those are the primary reasons that this will fall under Cavechat.

Aaron, the primary reason for the continued debate and the reason this topic is still alive is simply to decide the best way to continue. I am in favor of adding a cave map section but I also want to make sure we take the time to consider all options and we get it right the first time. Since this is just a side project we have no time limit so we can afford to spend a few weeks discussing possible problems and the best ways to implement the new features.
User avatar
David Grimes
Admin
 
Posts: 1297
Joined: Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
Location: Port Richey, Fl / Harrison County, In
NSS #: 59533
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Indiana Underground Society
  

Re: Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Postby LukeM » Jan 19, 2012 10:31 pm

I was really just curious but from a structural standpoint it just seemed to make more sense for it to be on caves.org. I didn't realize that there were reasons that the Cavechat team would be prevented from operating the resource through that website. My only concern would be whether it would get missed by some members because it's hosted through a sub-section of the NSS' online presence. I'm sure that could all be addressed when the time comes though. Carry on! :)
User avatar
LukeM
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 705
Joined: Jan 30, 2008 2:53 pm
Location: Albany, NY
Name: Luke Mazza
NSS #: 59317
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Syracuse University Outing Club
  

Re: Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Postby David Grimes » Jan 19, 2012 11:26 pm

I cannot say for sure but I would think it wil be worthy of a direct link from the caves.org website so I doubt that will be much of an issue. The map section would be built outside the phpbb software and would be able to operate basicaly as its own website via links from Cavechat and the NSS website. Either way when you click the link you will be required to log in since the map section would have a different password and likely a different username than your Cavechat account. This will be required to check the NSS membership database to verify if a user is a current NSS member.
User avatar
David Grimes
Admin
 
Posts: 1297
Joined: Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
Location: Port Richey, Fl / Harrison County, In
NSS #: 59533
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Indiana Underground Society
  

Re: Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Postby Crockett » Jan 23, 2012 7:52 am

Rather than link directly to a high quality image of a map why not link to how to get particular maps.

Examples:

Contact the owner at _____.

Attend an NSS Grotto meeting at _____.

Fill out the following online form.

Go to the NSS Bookstore and buy the book titled _____.

Contact the Cartographer at ______.

File a request with the State Park Service at ______.

Register for and attend the NSS Convention.

Contribute 20 hours of volunteer time to any of the listed projects and get this map for free.

Or best of all:

To get a high quality copy of this map send your name, address and $500 to Mike Crockett at 108 Ann Street, Pineville, Kentucky 40977

I could go on but you get the point. Teach them to fish.

I guess you could give them a few maps just to make it interesting. Just giving away a whole portfolio of maps for the asking seems pointless and potentially destructive. I think anybody who advocates gathering up cave maps just to give them away has not made many cave maps. Is the book store there just to give away copies of books? Maybe this has already been said. I admit I didn't read every post in this thread and I am a grumpy old man.
Crockett
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 243
Joined: Feb 5, 2006 7:10 pm
Location: Pineville, Kentucky
Name: Mike Crockett
NSS #: 33730
Primary Grotto Affiliation: East Tennessee Grotto
  

Re: Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Postby LukeM » Jan 23, 2012 10:13 am

Just curious, does anyone make cave maps with the intention of getting anything back other than gaining a better understanding of the cave and creating a resource for those navigating the cave? Not that there's anything inherently wrong with making money off the production of a map. I've just never heard of someone doing that.

To obtain a physical copy I could certainly see paying for the person's time and material costs in creating the print.
User avatar
LukeM
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 705
Joined: Jan 30, 2008 2:53 pm
Location: Albany, NY
Name: Luke Mazza
NSS #: 59317
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Syracuse University Outing Club
  

Re: Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Postby Leitmotiv » Jan 23, 2012 12:57 pm

At the very least it gets you recognition and expands your portfolio.
Leitmotiv
Prolific Poster
 
Posts: 164
Joined: May 17, 2006 4:39 pm
Location: Salem, Oregon
Name: Matt Skeels
NSS #: 53428
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Oregon High Desert Grotto
  

Re: Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Postby David Grimes » Jan 23, 2012 1:11 pm

You could honestly come up with thousands of different ways to distribute maps. Telling someone who to contact or where to buy the map in a guidebook would basically make the feature useless. Just supplying contact information or directions for how to obtain a map would not be worth the effort it will take to create the new map section and would add no value to NSS membership.

I have said before that we could limit the number of map downloads you could do per month. Limiting downloads would save bandwidth and keep a user from downloading the entire database unless they want to spend the time each month to download their limit of maps.
User avatar
David Grimes
Admin
 
Posts: 1297
Joined: Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
Location: Port Richey, Fl / Harrison County, In
NSS #: 59533
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Indiana Underground Society
  

Re: Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Postby Footleg » Jan 24, 2012 4:43 am

There are other ways to publish cave maps online without making it easy to just download them wholesale. Here is another example of an excellent online resource for cave surveys for the Yorkshire Dales in Northern England.
http://cavemaps.org. This site has been made possible only because the majority of the survey rights owners in the caving community have agreed to make these maps publicly available. Take a look at the Deep Zoom section for examples of allowing maps to be browsed without making it easy to download the entire image file.
User avatar
Footleg
Frequent Poster
 
Posts: 65
Joined: May 15, 2009 8:03 am
  

Re: Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Postby BrianFrank » Jan 24, 2012 9:12 am

Footleg wrote:There are other ways to publish cave maps online without making it easy to just download them wholesale. Here is another example of an excellent online resource for cave surveys for the Yorkshire Dales in Northern England. http://cavemaps.org. This site has been made possible only because the majority of the survey rights owners in the caving community have agreed to make these maps publicly available. Take a look at the Deep Zoom section for examples of allowing maps to be browsed without making it easy to download the entire image file.


That is a SWEET site! I would donate funds for the same to happen in TAG.
.
.
All TAG cavers join http://www.SCCI.org. A small price for a GREAT resource.
User avatar
BrianFrank
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 455
Joined: Apr 5, 2011 11:25 am
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Name: Brian
NSS #: 52121
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Dogwood City Grotto
  

Re: Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Postby David Grimes » Jan 24, 2012 11:49 am

The deep zoom section allows you to zoom in and view small details on the map but I fail to see how that website keeps you from downloading the whole map. If you go to the survey section you can easily download or print the maps. I also think you are missing the point of the map section. Our goal is to make them available for users to print them and use them in the cave.
User avatar
David Grimes
Admin
 
Posts: 1297
Joined: Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
Location: Port Richey, Fl / Harrison County, In
NSS #: 59533
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Indiana Underground Society
  

PreviousNext

Return to Survey and Cartography Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users