Cavechat.org

While the topic is drifting off slightly I think it is a good thing. The poll is closed but maybe we can still get some good arguments in for both sides. This topic is still under debate so please feel free to keep the conversation going. Maybe we will arrive at an agreement eventually (I won't hold my breath but stranger things have happened).

Sorry for the back to back posts but I thought I could help steer this topic by letting everyone know where we are now and let you all decide what you think. First, I want to say we have not approved adding this feature yet so everything in this message is subject to change.

Here is what we have so far. The cave map section will be limited to active NSS members only. There will be a secure login required to access the map area. All the maps submitted will have to be approved by a moderator or myself before being added to the site. Currently I am trying to decide how to handle maps whose owners are no longer living or reachable but for now we can assume no maps will be added without proof of ownership.

There it is so you can all tear it apart and let us know what you think. Please make recommendations if you have them or even voice your concerns. We can all agree that Cavechat is a great resource for gathering input and you all have many great suggestions. Let me know what you think.

That all sounds fine to me. I did expect that some widely published and circulated maps could be posted without upsetting the maker, but I suppose those maps could be had by private asking anyway. What about maps previously published in the NSS News? If this resource is only accessed by NSS members, would posting such maps, (that may have been published proir to the active membership of many members) with the blessing of the maker, be appropriate?

The cave map section will be limited to active NSS members only.

Is this really relavent considering that NSS membership is not vetted?

The NSS membership requirement is more of a membership value issue. Like you point out being an NSS member is no guarantee that you are a responsible caver. Since this forum is owned by the NSS and by extension the map section would be also we are always looking for ways to add value to NSS membership.

Spike wrote:

The cave map section will be limited to active NSS members only.

Is this really relavent considering that NSS membership is not vetted?

I think it's completely relevant, NSS membership value aside. I would gladly stand by the idea that there are more irresponsible cavers among the caving population as a whole than there are in the NSS. Far more even. I may not have anything to back that up with but I'd be willing to put money on it.

You could also argue that it will draw irresponsible cavers to the NSS, but a) it would take a very long time and a lot of increased membership to get to the point where there are as many irresponsible cavers within the NSS as there are outside of it, and b) if it does happen you've attracted irresponsible cavers to one of the few organizations set up to educate people about caves and caving.

This would be awesome. It seems from looking over the comments that those who have caved longer (probably already have the maps they want) are the majority of those against this idea. I understand that....it is human nature to enjoy having something exclusive.

Another thought....charge for the service. It is important for the NSS to generate income to stay viable. Because of higher expenses, the NSS recently announced cutbacks in printing with regard to their periodicals. Maybe this idea could be a way for additional income to the NSS. I would be willing to pay a small fee to download maps, or pay a small fee per downloaded map. Charging for the service would be another layer of protection to weed out irresponsible cavers who aren't serious. People take better care of something when they have an investment in it.

Now where did I put my Kevlar vest.

charging for maps would make you liable for their use and even quality....thats suicide.

Proof of ownership will probably kill the idea. You are then left with cave chat cartographers as the only submitters. thats a dead man walking as far as a useful resource I think. I think if somone shows they are the owner and wants a map removed thats fine.

I don't want to have to limit map submissions but we also need to have some way to verify that the poster has permission to post the map. As for map owners asking that maps be removed that is fine but how can we really verify that someone is the owner to request the map be removed? We also have new legislation in the works that does not really affect this particular issue but could cause more severe repercussions should a copyright issue arise.

ummm if we dont have a simple way to show someone is the owner and thus has the right to have a map removed how do we verify a submitter has permission from the owner?

Just had a thought. why bother with actual maps at all. Why not have folks simply list themselves as resources for whatever maps they are willing to provide. You could still have the NSS member sign in so they wouldnt get 5000 emails a day. Thus you dont have the issue of someone just sucking down a whole database and people are still required to interact with someone vested in the resource but willing to share data.

David Grimes wrote: how can we really verify that someone is the owner to request the map be removed? We also have new legislation in the works that does not really affect this particular issue but could cause more severe repercussions should a copyright issue arise.

Well, cartographers generally put their name on their maps- so that would be a start. As to copyright- there's plenty of existing case law that shows that cartographers hold the copyright to their work- just as photographers hold the rights to their images, and musicians hold the rights to their recorded works.

Of course we know how well people respect musical copyrights nowadays... ;-(

I actually was not referring to all submissions. The issue is with maps whose creators are no longer available for whatever reason. In most cases you could argue that there is no one to complain so whats the harm but in some cases a new party might have ownership rights to the map. In these cases it would be very hard to prove ownership since they would not be an author of the map. I realize this is really a stretch but I am just trying to cover all the angles. In most cases if the poster is listed on the map as an author then it is simple to assume they have the right to add it to the database. If we have a database of only maps that contributing members have personally created it is basically a waste of time. In reality wyandottecaver's solution of simply removing the maps if there is a complaint from the owner will be the only viable option.

Can the cave owner request the map be pulled, even if he is not the owner of the map?

I would say the cave owner should have the option but I doubt it will ever be an issue. It really is not often that a cave owner happens to visit Cavechat. If an owner is by some chance bothered by cavers wanting access to their cave due to the map being available here then they should be able to request that the map be removed.

I suppose I should reword an earlier question. If the database is only viewable by NSS members, would it be a violation to post maps previously made available to NSS members in the NEWS without seeking specific consent?