Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Techniques, equipment and issues. Also visit the NSS Survey & Cartography Section.

Moderator: Moderators

Would you be interested in this feature?

Poll ended at Jan 1, 2012 8:50 pm

Yes, I would use and contribute to it.
20
37%
I would probably contribute to it.
1
2%
I would probably use it.
9
17%
Undecided.
4
7%
I do not like the ideal.
20
37%
 
Total votes : 54

Re: Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Postby LukeM » Jan 14, 2012 10:52 am

GroundquestMSA wrote:I suppose I should reword an earlier question. If the database is only viewable by NSS members, would it be a violation to post maps previously made available to NSS members in the NEWS without seeking specific consent?


And following that, what about maps previously published in guidebooks? Are the maps in those all specifically approved by the authors? Those are available to more than just NSS members so any further distribution using this resource would in fact be more limited than previous publication.
User avatar
LukeM
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 705
Joined: Jan 30, 2008 2:53 pm
Location: Albany, NY
Name: Luke Mazza
NSS #: 59317
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Syracuse University Outing Club
  

Re: Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Postby David Grimes » Jan 14, 2012 11:24 am

I seriously doubt the maps in all the guidebooks from conventions and even grotto events have sought permission from the author. Perhaps in some cases but I know many times they are just pulled from a grotto's collection without any more thought. Convention guidebooks are a little more planned in most cases so I cannot say for sure.
User avatar
David Grimes
Admin
 
Posts: 1297
Joined: Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
Location: Port Richey, Fl / Harrison County, In
NSS #: 59533
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Indiana Underground Society
  

Re: Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Postby Roppelcaver » Jan 14, 2012 12:36 pm

I see a laisse faire approach to this issue. I think lots of assumptions are bing made that may or may not be valid. Whether I agree or not with doing this is irrelevant. But, I think we should all be able to agree on that what maps are posted need to go through a careful vetting process -- issues include, but are not limited to: cave sensitivity, landowner considerations, map owners, copyrights, considerations of others vested in the cave (e.g., ongoing survey projects). All of this needs to be considered in each case, and a default assumption that if the map has been around it should be okay (old guidebook maps, for example) is tenuous.

It is alos important to keep one's perspective. The map is a representation of the cave. Although the issue of map ownership has been dominant in this discussion, the fundamental issue is about the cave and should be the primary concern. No, I am not trying to restate my arguement, but the first question is: is it in the cave's and/or owner's interest (or desire) to make this map available. Once that is determined as okay, only then you can start thinking about the disposition (or availability) of the map.

I think if this will proceed further (not determined, I guess), David will offer a proposed process that will be put into place to ensure that the maps being posted are appropriately vetted against all the relevant variables.
Roppel Caver guy
Roppelcaver
Prolific Poster
 
Posts: 158
Joined: Sep 4, 2005 11:23 pm
  

Re: Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Postby David Grimes » Jan 14, 2012 1:58 pm

I just want to point out that I was not saying a default assumption that old maps from guidebooks are okay to post since they have been in guidebooks. I was just bringing up the point that arguably most of the creators of the numerous guidebooks out there did not seek permission from the map owner (or cave owner) before adding the map to their guidebooks. An exception might be a cave owner who limits access to their cave. Even in that case they would not ask permission to add the map but rather for access. I honestly do not expect to ever have the number of maps contained in all the past convention guidebooks which are available to the public at any time for less than the price of NSS membership.

The bottom line is you are not going to see a map for any cave that the owner of the map does not want available. On the issue of older maps, unless someone specifically owns the rights to the map no one can say it should be kept private. Simply being against the ideal of public maps does not give anyone the authority to restrict access to property that does not belong to them. You can argue that it does not give you the authority to make them public either but if there is no owner to complain then where is the harm. Personally if I worked hard to create a good map I would prefer to share it with the world instead of hiding it away until I die and have it disappear.
User avatar
David Grimes
Admin
 
Posts: 1297
Joined: Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
Location: Port Richey, Fl / Harrison County, In
NSS #: 59533
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Indiana Underground Society
  

Re: Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Postby Roppelcaver » Jan 14, 2012 3:14 pm

David,

I think you misunderstood the points I was trying to make. I made two principal recommendations:

1. Understand the possible scenarios and have your process accomodate them.
2. The first issue is consideration of the resource (cave, cave owner, etc.). The map discussion is moot unless the first issue is satisfied.

I think if you are focused totally on the map, you are missing the key point. That's all I am saying.

And, no, I don't want my maps to disappear either. And they won't.
Roppel Caver guy
Roppelcaver
Prolific Poster
 
Posts: 158
Joined: Sep 4, 2005 11:23 pm
  

Re: Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Postby Stan Allison » Jan 14, 2012 3:38 pm

:exactly: I agree with RoppelCaver on this issue. I think that any online posting of cave maps by the NSS should be done slowly and cautiously, if at all. Once a cave map has been placed on the internet even with access limited to only NSS members it can't be taken back, ever. Even if the map is removed from this website, it will still have been widely distributed.

One issue that concerns me is that while there has been quite a bit of discussion about land owner concerns about publishing cave maps online, I haven't seen any mention about land manager concerns. Here in the West where I do most of my caving, we spend most of our time caving on Federal lands such as USFS, BLM and NPS. Certain projects that I am working on involve me signing a non-disclosure agreement. If any of the maps that I have drafted for those projects were to appear on the NSS website it is quite likely that it would at a minimum damage the relationship between NSS cavers and those federal agencies and could quite possibly end that project.

I think that any map that is posted should be required to have written permission from the map cartographer, and cave owner or cave managing agency. Other factors such as cave sensitivity, vulnerability and desires of cavers working on projects in those caves should also be considered. While this would make it more difficult to post maps, I think that this is a situation where it is better to be cautious. I also think that this is an issue that is bigger than Cavechat and should be reviewed at a higher level within the NSS before proceeding.

OK, now I'm going to go find a safe place to hide from the flame-throwers this post might provoke. :frymyhide:
Stan Allison
Occasional Poster
 
Posts: 45
Joined: Jun 6, 2007 5:08 pm
  

Re: Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Postby DeanWiseman » Jan 14, 2012 3:55 pm

Stan Allison wrote:OK, now I'm going to go find a safe place to hide from the flame-throwers this post might provoke. :frymyhide:



Bad idea, Stan. I don't think you should hide from a reasoned opinion... Say your piece and defend it, I say.


That said, I'm not going to flame you for your opinion, but rather flame your opinion about posting your opinion... :laughing: :big grin:



-Dean
Image
User avatar
DeanWiseman
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 322
Joined: Jan 23, 2007 4:39 pm
Location: Indianapolis, Indiana
NSS #: 32690
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Central Indiana Grotto
  

Re: Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Postby David Grimes » Jan 14, 2012 7:13 pm

Stan, this issue is being reviewed at a higher level. That is the reason we are having this discussion instead of simply taking the poll results and running with them. I am all for giving people a chance to express their opinions and I would not simply create this addition without further review since I am always looking for an unbiased opinion.

As for non-disclosure agreements I don't think you would have an issue unless you are giving your maps out to people who would violate your trust and post it without your permission. I can assure you that I will do what I can to verify that the poster has permission to add the map before it is made available but the simple fact is some will get through and you will simply need to ask me to remove the map.

Roppelcaver, I do see your point and to an extent it is valid. I agree that the cave and cave owner should be considered but the simple matter is no one knows which caves need additional protection or which may be harmed by increased visitation. The only thing we can do is trust the map contributors to not include those maps or determine some other way to restrict access to particular maps based on info provided by the contributor. The cave owner is a slightly different story. If I were to call you (pretend your a cave owner) and I say we want to add the map of your cave to an online database where NSS members can download the map, this may or may not increase traffic to your cave, do you consent. It sounds a million times worse than it really is, in reality a small number of caves would see a noticeable increase in visitation. I absolutely agree if a cave owner contacts me and wishes to have the map of their cave removed I will do so without question. I would argue that these are all issues the person adding the map should consider not necessarily us here at Cavechat. I may be too trusting of our Cavechat members but I don't think we would have an issue. This is obviously my opinion.

By the way Stan please jump back in here. We are all friends here and I promise I can handle any criticism you can throw out.
User avatar
David Grimes
Admin
 
Posts: 1297
Joined: Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
Location: Port Richey, Fl / Harrison County, In
NSS #: 59533
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Indiana Underground Society
  

Re: Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Postby Roppelcaver » Jan 14, 2012 7:33 pm

David,

It sounds like the stake in the ground you propose is a de facto position that a map should be deemed okay to post unless proven otherwise.

Stan makes a good illustrative example with the Feds. For sure, no map should be posted until you have clear, unambiguous, written permission to do so. I think cave owners (private) have similar stake, but lack the big stick of the federal government.

Cavers, by nature, have a pride of ownership issue with caves. I know I do about Roppel, even though I don't own one foot of it. I am very protective of it, right or wrong. I think some inadvertantly forget about the owner (which is why we have some annoyed owners who close caves), and the NSS obligation is to not forget them in this process.

Same goes for the caves. Who is the best judge about what caves are sensitive? It may not be the person distributing the map. It depends, and needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis.

One bad decision can wreck landowner relations and/or ruin a cave. A bias toward open distribution may not be prudent.

You know, if the owner of Roppel wanted to post a map (he is a cave owner, but I provide the maps), I would cringe, might suggest he not, but defer to his wishes without whining. As it is, he gives maps out to people he knows so they can run around the cave (that he allows in). Is this ideal? Maybe not to me, but the issue cuts both ways.
Roppel Caver guy
Roppelcaver
Prolific Poster
 
Posts: 158
Joined: Sep 4, 2005 11:23 pm
  

Re: Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Postby LukeM » Jan 14, 2012 7:59 pm

Stan Allison wrote:Once a cave map has been placed on the internet even with access limited to only NSS members it can't be taken back, ever. Even if the map is removed from this website, it will still have been widely distributed.


I just want to point out that this is true for any distribution of a map, not just online distribution. In fact, I would argue it's easier to lose a digital copy. I've had many hard drives fail on me over the years, but I've never lost any important paper documents or guidebooks. I've also seen people photocopy or trace maps plenty of times to give them to friends.

Not singling anyone out since this is just a gut feeling, but I think there's a fair amount of broad and unfounded negativity toward digital/internet resources going on in this discussion. No one skeptical of this seems to be recognizing that even more lax means of distributing maps have been occurring for decades now, and that their own maps will not be published unless they approve it.

Just as an example, if I live in Kentucky and want maps of caves but am not yet an NSS member I have two options. I can become an NSS member and use this resource to find maps of Kentucky caves, or I can spend $10 and get the Kentucky convention guidebook complete with maps of around 50 caves. It will likely be quite a while before there are 50 maps from Kentucky on this online resource. Just trying to keep things in perspective.
User avatar
LukeM
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 705
Joined: Jan 30, 2008 2:53 pm
Location: Albany, NY
Name: Luke Mazza
NSS #: 59317
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Syracuse University Outing Club
  

Re: Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Postby David Grimes » Jan 14, 2012 8:27 pm

Luke, that is pretty much the same point I am trying to make. It is not like we are going to have 10,000 maps in a year. The reality is at least for a while this will be a very limited resource, likely with maps to mostly well known and traveled caves.

Like Luke pointed out at least there will be some form of regulation for this resource. Grotto events often use maps in their guidebooks without permission from the author or cave owner. The printed versions are then handed out to anyone who is willing to shell out $5-$30 to do what they will with them.

There are also resources available at local libraries. I personally have made copies of cave maps that are archived from studies performed by the state and that only cost me $.05 per page.

I am not really proposing a new resource, all these maps are available now to anyone who is willing to spend a few minutes on the internet and a little bit of money. As for a the owner of Roppel wishing to share maps of his cave you are describing the opposite scenario that you are arguing. You allow the owner to distribute your maps because you want continued access to his cave which you have no ownership in. On the other hand you are free to distribute your map to anyone you like without the owners permission simply because it is your property. You may refrain from doing so out of fear the owner will not allow you to continue your project. I think everyone is putting too much emphasis on increased visitation. This is really a very tiny issue that will affect a very small number of caves by comparison. For example, how many people do you think currently visit Roppel cave each month? Now, being honest how many more do you think there would be if all current NSS members were able to access the map including county and state but no other information? In reality some caves will see increased visitation but those are more likely to be already popular well known caves.

I will make one more example, I am actually a cave owner. I have a small blind pit on my property that actually shows promise of continuing. If I were to map the pit and post the map here with the information that it is in Harrison County Indiana I am willing to bet I will not see any increase in cavers wanting to visit my cave. That is my main point that not all caves will see an increase in visitation at all and the ones that do will likely be so small it is not noticeable.

That is why I do not feel that this resource would jeopardize any land owner relations cavers have built or result in damage to caves beyond what would occur without the map being available.

EDIT: I just wanted to point out that while this thread sometimes appears to be going in circles there are people reading this thread and considering all of your views so please do not refrain from posting here. Your input will be considered.
User avatar
David Grimes
Admin
 
Posts: 1297
Joined: Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
Location: Port Richey, Fl / Harrison County, In
NSS #: 59533
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Indiana Underground Society
  

Re: Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Postby Roppelcaver » Jan 14, 2012 9:16 pm

David,

I have to make one correction to your statement. If I "owned" a map. and the land owner does not want it distributed, I do not distribute it. As you suggest, it is not due to fear of retribution, it is because it is the right thing to do.

In many cases it may be okay, but in many cases it is not. In the end, the owner does actually hold the higher legal card -- he has the expectation of privacy and can hold other accountable for creating a nuisance. Probably has never been legally tested in this situation, but that is beside the point. I think you owe them the benefit of the doubt that they *might* have concerns.

Also, you suggesting that publishing maps will have at worst a negligable impact to visitation is only an opinion, without any basis in fact. Roppel visitation has actually been more problematic due to availability of information, to the point where irreperable damage has occurred to uniquely sensitive areas -- this has not even been maps, but survey trip reports that we used to make available. I can show you if you want. And I am not indicting sanctioned recreational cavers (who use the cave frequently, with the support and permission of the owner(s)), I am speaking of rogues who feel free to sneak in and run amok. I hear from them that it is their "right", and we have no right to stop them. Perhaps, but these same folks have not even bothered to ask the owner, or asked to participate on a trip.

Even in Roppel, I have no issue with recreational trips. Many of you over the years have participated in trips that I have guided in Roppel. Whether it be field camps I plan, or in response to requests from cavers; I try to accomodate them. Will they help with the proejct? Maybe, maybe not, but I have no expectation. If one or two sticks and returns to help on the survey project, we are all the better. My primary goal is to protect the cave, followed by showing cavers a good time on these trips. The rules are made clear, then we have a grand old time.

I give up on the argument. I say it is first about the caves and owners, with the map after that. I am not speaking against posting maps, just say do so responsibly without making broad assumptions about the possible impacts.
Roppel Caver guy
Roppelcaver
Prolific Poster
 
Posts: 158
Joined: Sep 4, 2005 11:23 pm
  

Re: Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Postby David Grimes » Jan 14, 2012 9:57 pm

I do agree it is entirely my opinion that increased visitation will be negligible. It is also your opinion that that it would be more substantial. There are no facts to support either argument. It would be different if we were talking about a caving event where there would be cavers specifically in the area of these caves but we are talking about a national database with no coordinates.

I did not mean to imply that your only reason for not distributing maps was fear of retribution. I know it came out that way so I apologize, I was really using it to make my point. As for the owner and legal implications, that is a bit of a stretch. I agree an owner might have concerns which are likely the very same concerns we are discussing here. Telling someone that their cave is going to see increased visitation or they are going to see an increase in people contacting them to visit their cave because a map of the cave was added to a national database owned by the NSS is not warranted in this situation. There is no proof they will ever see an increase or that they will not. The simple matter is a user would have to go through some other means besides this database to locate the cave and/or seek permission. A caver or someone familiar with the cave is still going to be the last line when it comes to contacting landowners. While someone may find a map and decide they would like to visit a particular cave someone else still needs to help them.

I understand your frustrations with visitation to Roppel (especially people sneaking in) but the simple fact is other cavers make the cave far more accessible than posting a map online would. I personally have no ideal where Roppel cave is located (sometimes I feel like the only one who doesn't) but I frequently hear about it online. There are also several videos and tons of pictures of the cave floating around. Those are the sources of your increased visitation. My point was in terms of less known caves.

I will concede that privately owned caves deserve special attention when it comes to distributing information. I do not think that personally contacting the land owner should be needed or required by Cavechat in order to add a map of their cave to our database. I do think in some cases where the land owner is more concerned (like in the case of Roppel) the person submitting the map should consider the land owners wishes before adding the map. No matter how we proceed it will be a matter of time before a map needs to be removed for one reason or another, when that happens we will simply remove the map. Just because the resource is available online it does not mean that it would be spread any further than printed maps through the years.

I do not foresee people running in and downloading the entire database just to say they have a collection of cave maps. If that is a concern then we can simply limit the number of downloads a user can make each month.
User avatar
David Grimes
Admin
 
Posts: 1297
Joined: Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
Location: Port Richey, Fl / Harrison County, In
NSS #: 59533
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Indiana Underground Society
  

Re: Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Postby Roppelcaver » Jan 14, 2012 10:48 pm

David,

You misunderstand much.

I don't have facts about visitation? I can see it in Roppel, and I am talking about the rogues I referenced. Indeed you are seeing more chatter about sport trips to Roppel -- I sigh at that. BUT, I can at least have solace that these trips are sanctioned and led by folks aware of the impact issues and act responsibly. Am I delighted. No, but I take no issue with it, since the right gates (so to speak) are in place. Degradation of Roppel Cave has largely been from these rogues, although it is possible internet chatter has exacerbated it (like on Facebook or CaveChat). If there was a Roppel map that was useful, it would make it worse still.

You qualified your argument about visitation impacts: narrowing it to only obscure (less known) caves, not more known ones like Roppel. Unarguably, as I have agreed it depends, and each situation is unique and should be considered as such. And, I am certainly not advocating being an alarmist and going to cave owners and asking them about this, and warning them of pending hordes. That's nonsense. But, most caves have someone knowledgeable about which have sensitive owners and may not appreciate it, even if you think the risk is negligable. We should be cautious. After all, would you advocate publishing a map to a cave on federal land, even though that management agency is against it (by policy), because you think it is not a big deal, or there is no "proof" that it will? (Although in this case, they will want to throw someone in the slammer). And, it is not a "stretch" that there are legal considerations -- nuisance laws can apply in some circumstances. Similar situations have gone in favor of the landowners (rockclimbing guides is a good example where things have gone bad sometimes).

I will say again, whether this goes forward or not I do not care. But, I do insist that their be guidelines and process for maps being posted, and parameters for access. That is not unreasonable, is it? The point-to-point debate is amusing, but not productive, and can be croadly addressed through the developed process that you or some delegate will develop.
Roppel Caver guy
Roppelcaver
Prolific Poster
 
Posts: 158
Joined: Sep 4, 2005 11:23 pm
  

Re: Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Postby David Grimes » Jan 14, 2012 11:16 pm

I agree and I think we actually made a little progress that time around. I do not participate in this topic to go in circles but rather I would like something constructive to come out of it. I am in favor of adding this feature but like I said before I am not going to force my will on the Cavechat users so the topic is being debated at a higher level.

I also agree that there needs to be guidelines for submitting maps as well which is the primary reason why I want this topic to continue. Out of all the debate eventually a good compromise will be found. If we do end up adding a map section I would like the people who were against the ideal to be happy with the finished product as well. I know you can never satisfy everyone but I would certainly like to satisfy the majority.

I think a more constructive approach may be the best way to steer this thread. How would you suggest we handle map submissions? This question is not aimed at Roppelcaver but everyone who reads this. Please tell us how you think we should handle this (excluding not making a map section since this is hypothetical anyway).
User avatar
David Grimes
Admin
 
Posts: 1297
Joined: Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
Location: Port Richey, Fl / Harrison County, In
NSS #: 59533
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Indiana Underground Society
  

PreviousNext

Return to Survey and Cartography Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users