Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

[BrianC]

If the owner of a cave map want's their information public, then they can do what they will. Otherwise under no exception would I think giving out data that WILL create the wanting for people that have no idea how sensitive certain areas are. Or the land owners and neighbors that would have to deal with cavers all over their property looking for caves in the area. If a caver wants to see a cave that has been mapped, then all they need to do is ask. If the cave is sensitive for what ever the reason, that would be discussed by whomever has the rights to the map. Cave surveys have very strict conduct and require much confidence in the members use of the material shared. Some cave maps are extremely awesome, and create the need to see at what ever cost. This cannot happen. If a caver wants all the private information available, then they must provide themselves to the surveys for the resources available. There is no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

[David Grimes]

Brian and Trogman,

You both have valid points but you also make an argument for this resource as well. The simple fact that some cave surveys have such strict membership requirements or require so many many things happen before you can get the information you need it is likely to deter some new cavers.

Say I have been caving for a year and been a NSS member for the last 10 months, I do not meet the membership requirements for some of the cave surveys that you mention. So what am I to do when I want to visit a new cave that I have coordinates for but I would like a map. I am not going to wait another year and two months so I can join a cave survey and maybe get the map I am looking for.

I understand that users can and often do come to Cavechat and simply ask for maps and you can argue that the current system works, but just the other day I watched an enthusiastic newer caver ask for a map of Sullivan Cave for several days before I finally sent him one via PM. Sullivan Cave is very well known and a map in theory should be pretty easy to find since nearly every guidebook for an Indiana caving event contains the map.

I would not expect that little known caves or highly decorated caves that need protection would be added. Most newer cavers that are looking for maps are looking for well known caves because those are the ones they generally have coordinates for.

I guess I just fail to see the significance of a simple map without location data. Maybe it holds sentimental value to the surveyors but I honestly don't see the harm in making them more available. If you are unhappy with the ideal simply do not submit any maps. The other point is if you are not one of the creators of the maps then really you have no reason to argue that others should not be able to get the maps.

I have no issues with cave surveys in fact they are a good resource but they do the same thing except they use your maps to make money. If a cave survey had no maps or location data no one would give them their money. Since the cave survey depends on users to donate their maps for them to make a profit what is the harm in offering maps for free as long as the authors are willing to share.

EDIT: I will just add that I am not participating in the actual poll for this topic. All of my posts are simply my opinion and in no way affect the outcome of this poll.

[Herman Miller]

I would like to see this resource made available to NSS members, in this day and age many people want to see the benefits that NSS membership gives and I see this as a huge resource. I would like to put forth the following restrictions though:

1) This resource should require NSS Membership to access.

2) Maps need to be moderated prior to being posted to prevent exact or near enough locations being posted

3) Maps should be searchable / indexed by state and county.

I know many people make the argument that this will prevent people from joing there local surveys but I feel the people whom join will still join. Additionally many surveys have limited user access to maps and information, while this is probably not the case back east but out here in the west, a request may take several weeks, and or months. Its hard requesting maps to just peruse them when you know it takes time and money away from the surveys.

And before someone calls me out I know my membership is delinquent but it will be paid soon

[LukeM]

What's to stop Joe Blow spelunker from buying convention guidebooks that are littered with maps? The resource we're talking about is really just a money saver. It's not like proceeds from guidebooks go to cartographers anyway.

Also, to those who are complaining about people locating caves using maps, or wandering around on private property: do you have any examples of someone locating a cave knowing only the county in which it's located?

What Herman Miller said about NSS membership being a requirement for access makes some sense. Maybe people will start seeing NSS membership as a worthwhile investment and a resource to cavers. I can picture myself as a new caver and seeing that as a huge reason for joining.

[BrianC]

I have no issues with cave surveys in fact they are a good resource but they do the same thing except they use your maps to make money. If a cave survey had no maps or location data no one would give them their money. Since the cave survey depends on users to donate their maps for them to make a profit what is the harm in offering maps for free as long as the authors are willing to share..

First of all, there are very good reasons that the surveys require the membership term before consideration from the survey, and that is just the beginning. As you stated though, when someone really wants a map, and asks for it, most of the time they will be granted by someone. Also, as far as the surveys making money, that could not be farther from the truth. If you have ever seen the mountains of paper in the old days required for members to purchase sets of maps and data for individual counties, you would be blown away at the printing costs. I actually have complete state sets over a foot thick requiring many binders to fit the sets. Today, with electronic versions, the disk can hold everything. So the hundreds of dollars spent on paper is not needed for members, and finding what is looked for is as simple as a find search.The surveys, in no way made any profits from the map books. As I stated before, If a mapping crew wants to donate their maps, fine! But don't just import what belongs to someone else just because someone has a copy of it.
If a caver really wants a particular map, they will find a way to access it. Most caves have not been mapped, so really getting excited about creating maps would actually get someone more involved, and show them the work required to publish these map books.

[Herman Miller]

Just a quick adendum(sp?) I also see the NSS acting as a repository for the maps. How often do cave maps stay inside a grotto and simply dissapear eventually, that and eventually all you have is a bad photocopy of a map.

[laurieadams]

I guess my concerns were a little too paranoid. With the proper safeguards in place, it should work fine. Believe me, it's not our own community that I don't trust. It's the thought that these maps will be theoretically available to everyone in the entire world that had me spooked. I think one important consideration should be to get permission from the cave owner, as he (or she) may not like having a map of their cave made universal. I too love to look at cave maps, even if I will never visit them. A lot can be learned simply by viewing cave maps. So I will trust you guys and give my consent.

[David Grimes]

Brian,

I think my comment came out wrong. I did not necessarily mean they are making money (I know I used the term profit and that was my fault) but they are using the resources given to them to attract new members. The simple cost of maintaining the material is irrelevant since they should have figured in the costs when they decided to form the cave survey. I guess every group is different but in my experience if you want a printed map you have to pay the printing costs in addition to any membership fees.

NSS membership requirement is also an option since the NSS is always looking for ways to add value to membership. Usually when we mention requiring membership for something we get a lot of complaints which was why the original ideal was to require Cavechat membership but if more people feel like NSS membership should be a requirement I doubt there would be a problem.

Great suggestions though and great ways to make Cavechat even more valuable to the NSS.

[self-deleted_user]

It would definitly be a nice thing to make available to nss members. Right now, I'm not seeing much benefit to renew next July. However, having my own access - not needing to go through others - to maps would be wonderful. I think if it is a database the NSS has, the locations and access info should be posted as well. There should be a way on the NSS site itself to make a members-only section, which we can log into uniquely. This would keep the information amongst cavers. Joe Spelunker isn't going to pay full membership when he can get access to more popular caves (like say, Pettijohns comes to mind) to play in for free which is your safeguard there.

Another really neat project along those same lines that would be great for NSS Members and a bonus for membership is something to the effect of what they have done for Mendip. It's neat how you can even play around and put topo layers under it. Each cave location has the access info too just click the pins to make it pop up. I wish we had this for at leas the caverich regions in the US. It's really fun to look at. And all the access info right there means people have no excuse to screw up, and you knjow the status of the cave, who to get permission from or what club to hook up with for key or whatever. To have something like this linked up additionally with the map? OMG WIN. And totally a solid hard core reason to be a full NSS member.

[paul]

Another really neat project along those same lines that would be great for NSS Members and a bonus for membership is something to the effect of what they have done for Mendip. It's neat how you can even play around and put topo layers under it. Each cave location has the access info too just click the pins to make it pop up. I wish we had this for at leas the caverich regions in the US. It's really fun to look at. And all the access info right there means people have no excuse to screw up, and you knjow the status of the cave, who to get permission from or what club to hook up with for key or whatever. To have something like this linked up additionally with the map? OMG WIN. And totally a solid hard core reason to be a full NSS member.

The thing is, in the UK and the rest of Europe, we don't seem to have the problems which US cavers seem to have with having to keep cave locations away from those who would vandalise them, so information is far more accessible. For example, here is an example of a guide books listing all the caves and their locations in various UK caving areas. It is available to all, but probably not much of interest to most people other than cavers.

[self-deleted_user]

Oh I understand that Paul. Which is why it would be for full NSS Members only in a secured section of the site. It would take some work to set up a password protected section but every member could make their unique log in, like you do here for a forum, but instead nss member id and info would be checked before the login ID was okayed. This would keep it nicely locked up. A regular membership is $40. A benifit such as I meniton would be worth the $40 and may well draw back in members and bring in new ones. But vandals aren't going to pay $40 to get information when caves such as Pettijohns (I say it as an example of a classicly abused cave all the locals know about but there are plenty others) are free of access and easy to get to, and everyone knows about them. That right there is your filter.

If you wanted to add an additional layer of security for the section, along with the application for your login ID you could submit the names of say, two current NSS members, who have been NSS members for at least a year, as people who would vouch for you.

I don't see how with either or both layers of security that a bunch of hooligans would get info. But the people who could really benefit from such things would be able to get it much easier. And it would be a HUGE reason to have NSS membership.

[trogman]

Amy, the NSS already has a system similar to what you describe- at least for the state of AL. I say the NSS, since the state surveys are actually part of the NSS, and you have to be in the NSS to be in the ACS. The ACS has all of their maps and cave locations available online to all members. It has a google earth map that will show the location, and a nice search engine to look for specific caves, or caves in specific areas, etc. The website also has a Wiki section that allows members to plug in photos and info about the caves, as well as trip reports and descriptions. The website is tightly controlled, with 2 passwords required to get in.
The new system was just put in place about 1.5 years ago, and some of the bugs are still being worked out. For the most part it works fairly good. This is one of the benefits that I get from being an ACS member.

Trogman

[Herman Miller]

And perhaps to add an additional layer of security it would be possibe to "watermark" maps with whichever user is requesting the image. While it could be edited out it would still discourage people from just handing out maps... And perhaps you could have an access request list visible to the others who view the map. While not a full proof system it would once again provide another discouraging factor to a maps misuse

[Teresa]

I'm from Missouri. I'm also a life member of the NSS. I just voted no.
Here's why:
1) Any data put on the Net, regardless of whatever safeguards there are, can and will be hacked eventually.
2) I don't trust people, just because they bought an NSS membership, to use cave maps either knowledgeably or ethically. Also, what's to keep someone who is unethical from logging in as someone else? It's entirely possible.
3) The non-location maps will have to be organized, someone in the thread suggested by state and county. While I'm generally not personally opposed to giving info on a cave to this level of location, it is all too easy for someone with the map, to then go to the county and ask for the cave by name. With persistence, they will eventually find the location.
4) How does one verify that the person uploading the map is the person who created it, or who actually holds control of the copyright?
5) Of what use is a cave map without a location? It's a pretty drawing, no more.
6) How does one know the map is even roughly accurate? An inaccurate map is worse than none at all.
7) There are people other than cavers who might be interested in cave maps. These people now have to go through a state survey to get information, and that's where they find out the significance or non-significance of the cave. That is a good thing for the cave.
8) If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Yep...I'm agin this.

[Chads93GT]

I'm from Missouri. I'm also a life member of the NSS. I just voted no.
Here's why:
1) Any data put on the Net, regardless of whatever safeguards there are, can and will be hacked eventually.
2) I don't trust people, just because they bought an NSS membership, to use cave maps either knowledgeably or ethically. Also, what's to keep someone who is unethical from logging in as someone else? It's entirely possible.
3) The non-location maps will have to be organized, someone in the thread suggested by state and county. While I'm generally not personally opposed to giving info on a cave to this level of location, it is all too easy for someone with the map, to then go to the county and ask for the cave by name. With persistence, they will eventually find the location.
4) How does one verify that the person uploading the map is the person who created it, or who actually holds control of the copyright?
5) Of what use is a cave map without a location? It's a pretty drawing, no more.
6) How does one know the map is even roughly accurate? An inaccurate map is worse than none at all.
7) There are people other than cavers who might be interested in cave maps. These people now have to go through a state survey to get information, and that's where they find out the significance or non-significance of the cave. That is a good thing for the cave.
8) If it ain't broke, don't fix it.


Yep...I'm agin this.

From missouri, and I agree. Here, if you contribute data, you can usually get data from the MSS. I like it that way, but thats just me.