Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Techniques, equipment and issues. Also visit the NSS Survey & Cartography Section.

Moderator: Moderators

Would you be interested in this feature?

Poll ended at Jan 1, 2012 8:50 pm

Yes, I would use and contribute to it.
20
37%
I would probably contribute to it.
1
2%
I would probably use it.
9
17%
Undecided.
4
7%
I do not like the ideal.
20
37%
 
Total votes : 54

Re: Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Postby David Grimes » Jan 25, 2012 11:40 am

Trogman, didn't someone earlier say that you have to be a NSS member for two years before you can become an ACS member? If that is the case then what do the newer cavers do for the maps? It seems a little odd to me, I understand they are giving coordinates too but it seems a newer caver would benefit more from having a place where they could find maps. Most cavers that have been around other cavers for a couple years generally would have less trouble getting another caver to give them a map. While some cave surveys may offer the same type of service, several of them have srict membership requirements. The map section here would cover a much larger area and give map access to some people who do not meet membership qualifications for some of the cave surveys.
User avatar
David Grimes
Admin
 
Posts: 1297
Joined: Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
Location: Port Richey, Fl / Harrison County, In
NSS #: 59533
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Indiana Underground Society
  

Re: Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Postby trogman » Jan 25, 2012 1:33 pm

LukeM wrote:It's all too easy for someone who already has access to an amazing state cave survey to dismiss this as resource as too easy. If you're a member of those you already have it easy!

I don't have a cave survey in the state where I live or anywhere nearby. I don't have it easy. Sometimes I ask around for a map and no one knows where I could get it. Sometimes I know who has the map, but no prints have been made in a decade and no one wants to bother with scanning a big map for one or two newer cavers.

Edit: It seems like a lot of the negative attitudes toward this come from TAG cavers who already have access to every map they could ever need down there. That's a pretty comfortable place to oppose this from.


Luke, it a a comfortable place. But it got that way because of a lot of hard work and volunteer effort over many years. I know it's easy for me to say, since my state already has a cave survey group, but if yours doesn't, perhaps you should consider starting one. Someone has to get the ball rolling, and maybe that someone is you! It is a lot of hard work, but the rewards are worth it.

David Grimes wrote:Trogman, didn't someone earlier say that you have to be a NSS member for two years before you can become an ACS member? If that is the case then what do the newer cavers do for the maps? It seems a little odd to me, I understand they are giving coordinates too but it seems a newer caver would benefit more from having a place where they could find maps. Most cavers that have been around other cavers for a couple years generally would have less trouble getting another caver to give them a map. While some cave surveys may offer the same type of service, several of them have srict membership requirements. The map section here would cover a much larger area and give map access to some people who do not meet membership qualifications for some of the cave surveys.


Yes, that is true for AL, and I think GA has a similar requirement. There are very good reasons for those restrictions, as has been discussed before on this thread. I happen to think the restrictions are warranted. Again, that is why I have some reservations about the proposal on the table.

Trogman :helmet:
User avatar
trogman
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 961
Joined: May 2, 2008 8:35 am
Location: North Alabama
Name: Stephen Brewer
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Gadsden Grotto
  

Re: Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Postby David Grimes » Jan 25, 2012 2:11 pm

I agree with the membership restrictions when it comes to cave surveys since people generally join cave suveys to get coordinates to caves. If they were just giving out survey maps I would say the restriction is a bit extreme.
User avatar
David Grimes
Admin
 
Posts: 1297
Joined: Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
Location: Port Richey, Fl / Harrison County, In
NSS #: 59533
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Indiana Underground Society
  

Re: Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Postby UnderGroundEarth » Jan 25, 2012 2:28 pm

David, why not talk to board members on several of the state surveys throughout the country to see what their opinions are on this. Perhaps they could offer some suggestions. I think it's unfortunate that cavers in other regions do not have access to maps in their states as we do here in TAG. And like Stephen said, perhaps they just need someone to step up and get the ball rolling. I am sure that some of the other state survey's could lend assistance in how to do it.

I don't oppose this resource if a cartographer wants to share their map. What I do oppose is someone else uploading the hard work of a cartographer. It should be up to the person who drew the map to share it on here and I would like to know what the plan is going to be to ensure that doesn't happen.
Unearthly Beauty Lies Underground for those who Venture In!
www.flickr.com/undergroundearth
User avatar
UnderGroundEarth
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 536
Joined: May 17, 2006 3:39 pm
Location: Jasper, Tennessee
Name: Kelly Smallwood
NSS #: 58745 RL,FE
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Sewanee Mountain Grotto
  

Re: Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Postby David Grimes » Jan 25, 2012 2:43 pm

Kelly, I know there are plenty of people who oppose this and plenty who like it, there are also those who are undecided for various reasons or concerns. Like I have said before I will do everything reasonably necessary to verify the contributor has the right to add a map. In some cases there are older maps whose authors are no longer available for whatever reason. the maps with no owners are going to be the difficult ones since you can argue that no one technically has permission to post them but also no one has permission to say they should not be posted. These maps are only a small percentage of the maps out there so it likely will not be as much of an issue. Other maps are as simple as seeing who is adding them and determining if they were an author of the map or otherwise have permission from the owner of the map. I don't see people adding a lot of maps that they did not create themselves. Like we have said before if there is a complaint about a map being posted without permission we will simply remove the map. No matter what method is used to verify ownership of the map, the responsibility will be primarily on the contributor to make certain they are allowed to post the map. I am not saying we will do nothing to verify ownership, we simply do not have the resources to personally contact landowners and map authors to verify permission.
User avatar
David Grimes
Admin
 
Posts: 1297
Joined: Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
Location: Port Richey, Fl / Harrison County, In
NSS #: 59533
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Indiana Underground Society
  

Re: Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Postby Roppelcaver » Jan 25, 2012 3:30 pm

David,
I still see this all as very vague. You say you will do whatever is reasonable to ensure maps have the proper permissions, etc., but this is unrigorous. Who decides what is reasonable? I also see a tendency to dismiss expressed concerns as unlikey edge cases, without any real facts behind it. To be fair, you could argue that the naysayers are not offering a lot of facts either. I admit my opinions are anecdotal based on my experiences (which are many), but they are certainly not irrelevent. Yes, you admittedly are for this (and your bias is evident), but what concerns me is the tendency to presume it is "okay" for a map to be posted unless proven otherwise. I am not looking for unreasonable burden on the overseers, but comments like
the maps with no owners are going to be the difficult ones since you can argue that no one technically has permission to post them but also no one has permission to say they should not be posted
seem cavalier. No, you don't have the resources to do exhaustive searches, but not sure what it means to say "No one has permission to say they should not be posted." In the publishing world, using the adage that it is better to ask forgiveness than permission is not a good guideline.

Scenarion: there is a map made by a dead guy that gets uploaded. the dead guy cannot give permission, but the poster was a good friend of his and assures you that this is fine. Maybe it is his kid and he inherited the map. (Yes, edge case). Now, let's say I know the owner and he has told me that he is uncomfortable with lots of visitors and would prefer to not have any publicity about his cave. Question. Do I have permission to have the map pulled?

The thread is going sideways -- everyone has opinions, and your clear bias is not furthering this. I recommend that someone (you) come up with clear guidelines as a proposal and let folks comment on that, and try to take a more balanced approach. In the end, whatever gets done needs to reflect the general will of the participants and adhere to a resonable level of responsibility. The latter is the crux now.
Roppel Caver guy
Roppelcaver
Prolific Poster
 
Posts: 158
Joined: Sep 4, 2005 11:23 pm
  

Re: Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Postby UnderGroundEarth » Jan 25, 2012 3:48 pm

So regarding copyrights... I was curious about those who are dead and what the rights to publish are... This is what I pulled from Wikipedia for the United States...

Copyright terms based on authors deaths - Life + 70 years (works published since 1978 or unpublished works)

copyright terms based on publication and creation dates - 95 years from publication or 120 years from creation whichever is shorter (anonymous works, pseudonymous works, or works made for hire, published since 1978)

95 years from publication for works published 1964–1977; 28 (if copyright not renewed) or 95 years from publication for works published 1923–1963 (Copyrights prior to 1923 have expired.)


Based on this I don't think anyone would have a right to publish a dead persons cave map for a long time...
Unearthly Beauty Lies Underground for those who Venture In!
www.flickr.com/undergroundearth
User avatar
UnderGroundEarth
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 536
Joined: May 17, 2006 3:39 pm
Location: Jasper, Tennessee
Name: Kelly Smallwood
NSS #: 58745 RL,FE
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Sewanee Mountain Grotto
  

Re: Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Postby David Grimes » Jan 25, 2012 4:17 pm

Roppelcaver wrote:The thread is going sideways -- everyone has opinions, and your clear bias is not furthering this. I recommend that someone (you) come up with clear guidelines as a proposal and let folks comment on that, and try to take a more balanced approach. In the end, whatever gets done needs to reflect the general will of the participants and adhere to a resonable level of responsibility. The latter is the crux now.


Agreed, I was hoping to see more actual suggestions of what questions people would like to see asked and what processes they feel would be thorough enough to verify a users permission to post a map. It is harder to describe what I am thinking of for this resource than it would be if I had some form of a demo. I will try to make a detailed write up of how I expect the map section to operate as well as details on what I would consider reasonable when determining if a user should be allowed to add a map. I am actually out of town right now so it will be a couple weeks before I will have anything ready but I will post what I come up with here.

Just to respond to your scenario, I would likely ask for the concerned owners contact information and in that particular case I would personally contact the owner by whichever method the owner prefers. I have also considered automatically removing any contested map from public view once a complaint is filed, then upon the result of any investigation into the complaint the map will either be deleted or returned to public view. That addresses a part of your scenario since the map would be immediately removed until we could verify if the map needs to be removed permanently. This is just a thought right now but it is a real possibility. Let me know what you think of that and later I may add it to my final proposal.

Kelly, authors of maps do have a basic copyright when they create a map but if the copyright is not registered then no legal action can be pursued. I am not saying that we should violate the inherent copyrights since they can't do anything about it but unless the authors specifically registered the copyright (which would be very unusual for a cave map) there is nothing that says they cannot be shared so long as the author recieves credit. It is similar to citing a reference in an article. I am not in favor of violating anyone's copyright and I will consider your point when I am drafting a proposal for the overall map section.
User avatar
David Grimes
Admin
 
Posts: 1297
Joined: Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
Location: Port Richey, Fl / Harrison County, In
NSS #: 59533
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Indiana Underground Society
  

Re: Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Postby wyandottecaver » Jan 25, 2012 7:04 pm

David,

maybe this has been done, but I really think you need to take the pulse of the Directors. If there isnt at least enough support for a fight, we are wasting our time talking about this.

It seems there really are only 4 broad options.

1) Do nothing. Let some motivated individual gather and publish the maps independently without any need to ask anyone their opinion. (inevitable)

2) Since most State Surveys are I/O's of the NSS, just have the NSS leadership require open map access as part of their I/O status. (unlikely)

3) Create a database of maps where anyone can submit, but owners/cartographers can request they be removed. (logical and with much precedent)

4) Create a database (by cave state/county/name) of map contact organizations and individuals. requiring people to hunt down the sources on their own. (more useful than #1 and easier to get agreement than #2 or #3)
I'm not scared of the dark, it's the things IN the dark that make me nervous. :)
User avatar
wyandottecaver
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 2902
Joined: Aug 24, 2007 8:44 pm
Location: Indiana
  

Re: Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Postby David Grimes » Apr 8, 2012 9:38 am

The cave map resource has received final approval and will become a reality. It will likely take some time to complete unless I can find some type of mod for phpbb that serves the need. My plate is currently pretty full working on other projects but I will be working on this project as well. My first goal is to create and post a detailed proposal to highlight how everything will work.

If anyone wishes to volunteer to help with this project please contact me by email or pm.
User avatar
David Grimes
Admin
 
Posts: 1297
Joined: Jun 19, 2007 6:14 pm
Location: Port Richey, Fl / Harrison County, In
NSS #: 59533
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Indiana Underground Society
  

Re: Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

Postby copelandcaver7 » Aug 3, 2012 7:38 pm

I personally like the idea, but I agree that sensitive caves should be excluded. I would also get the permission from the people that was acutally in charge of the survey before posting the map. Also bear in mind nobody is forcing you to posts your maps the people that want to use it will and the people that don't will not. I always like to look at other people maps because I am learning how to draw myself and its a usefull tool to look at somebody that has been doing it longer to get ideas on how to draw something or a good way to display a multilevel cave system for example. Even if you never post one of your maps you can still utlize the maps that other people do. Also with our moderators on these forums that we have if they se something that should not be posted they can always remove the map. Just my two cents.
User avatar
copelandcaver7
Occasional Poster
 
Posts: 49
Joined: Dec 8, 2006 11:29 pm
Location: Springfield MO
  

Previous

Return to Survey and Cartography Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users