Therion

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Re: Therion

Postby Spike » Jan 30, 2012 4:37 pm

Why would they hand draw that map when at the end of the expedition it was already drawn up in Therion?

http://daveclucas.com/cms/images/cave_m ... moon_p.pdf
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Re: Therion

Postby Martin Sluka » Jan 30, 2012 5:47 pm

Spike wrote:Why would they hand draw that map when at the end of the expedition it was already drawn up in Therion?


Have you read that article? The part of expedition, let's say old fashion mappers, don't like therion, because:

    • The expertise needed to run the programme deters most cave surveyors.
      Agree.
    • Some of the more complex aspects of survey drawing still have issues requiring programme writing skills to fix.
      Don't agree.
    • Survey building is too reliant on the individual scraps which dominate design features, and in a large survey become difficult to control.
      The scraps structure is advantage that allow redefining (or define several) maps structure according to needs. One may export map of only one scrap or any subset of scraps.
    • The final drawing output is robotic in style and fails to produce an aesthetically pleasing product.
      Don't agree, you may do most of things you may do in Illustrator. Exception easy text manipulation.

So they did theirs own work instead to help Dave to "debug" therion's drawings (more than 200 km of passages) and criticize Dave's (and others) work. Shame.

Check: http://www.daveclucas.com/cms/index.php/caving2/44-cave-maps/170-whiterock-cave or http://www.daveclucas.com/cms/index.php/caving2/44-cave-maps/171-clearwater-system It is better to download pdfs and view them in a PDF viewer.
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Re: Therion

Postby Spike » Jan 30, 2012 10:07 pm

Yes I did read the article and I think it illustrates many problems with working with Therion. While you may disagree with how the team drew their conclusions regarding ease of use, aesthetics, etc. The point is a team decided to spend hundreds of man hours hand drafting a map rather than spend what they percieved as an unacceptable amount of effort to produce what they agreed was an inferior product. Maybe they where in error, perhaps they could have realized their goals using Therion, but there were enough cons to the workflow for it to be abandoned. Think about this from a marketing stand point. If you made an iPhone with enough "mispercieved" draw backs that someone took a free one and put it in the trash and used a calling card at a pay phone, since they couldn't figure out how advantageous the iPhone is, then have you really created a useful product? Maybe useful for some, but problematic enough to not be widely adopted.

What I ask young cartographers, that I hope will read this thread, is to carefully consider thier own skills, what they want the map to look like, and how much time they have to invest, and what kind of skills they wish to develop before learning one(or more) of the various ways to make a map. I personally would place Therion in the neat toy, but not right for me, catagory. Most of the maps I've seen from Therion never made it out of "draft" stage. On the oppisate end of the spectrum, are programs like Compass and Xara. Over ten years ago I watched Dave Taylor in the boondocks of Arkansas type of survey data, iImport a lineplot(centerline) into Xara and have a good looking map drawn in a few minutes. I was sold, I had looked at learning Illustrator and didn't like the learning curve. Five years later I wanted to do some things Xara could not so I learned Illustrator. Many of my Xara skills carried over and I was able to build from there. I'm happy at this point. I'm making maps that look the way I want them to look. I can show complex passageways, the data is dynamic and organized. I can do all the things that Therion does and I have never written one line of code to do it. I know you said that programming skills wasn't needed but remember not long ago it was stated in this forum that only "minor" programming language knowledge was needed. Guess, what I don't know a programming language. I'm a "user" not a developer. I don't "debug" programs. Users don't "debug" files they are manipulating. So before you start down the Therion route, new user, think to yourself, do I want to learn a programming language in order to draw a map?
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Re: Therion

Postby GroundquestMSA » Jan 30, 2012 11:42 pm

Spike wrote:What I ask young cartographers, that I hope will read this thread, is to carefully consider thier own skills, what they want the map to look like, and how much time they have to invest, and what kind of skills they wish to develop before learning one(or more) of the various ways to make a map.


I don't feel confident enough to call myself a cartographer, but I'm definitely young, and I'm making maps. I think there is one more factor, the teacher, to consider. I wish that it was practical for someone to teach me better ways of making maps. A complex system can be quickly learned with good help. In my case, though, I can't even consider using programs like Therion because I'm teaching myself and I can barely use Compass and Inkscape. Most of my maps have been hand plotted and drawn, and lettered with Paint :roll: .
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Re: Therion

Postby Martin Sluka » Jan 31, 2012 6:52 pm

Spike wrote:I can do all the things that Therion does and I have never written one line of code to do it. ... So before you start down the Therion route, new user, think to yourself, do I want to learn a programming language in order to draw a map?


I'm sorry, but you are not able to do "all the things that Therion does". What therion does only in import and export you may find here: http://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/doku.php?id=skillen.

There is very big misunderstanding that therion is tool to draw maps. It is only very small part of therion's features. Map is not in any way the only final product of therion, there are many other options.

1. All the therion files (excluding 3D) are plain text files. So in the feature somebody will be able to interpret such data without therion too. If no computers (but data are printed) all you need is graph paper, pencil and ruler.
2. You may archive all the data including history of exploration directly in therion file.
3. You may export many kinds of formats to use your data in different programs. kml/kmx for Google Earth for example.
4. 3D is generated from wall outlines and heights of passages so no a tubes or rectangles like 3D model but 3D much closer to real cave.
5. You may use Inkscape (!) to draw maps according to centerline imported from therion, assigning the attributes to a lines and „points“ as in therion's map editor with live preview, export it to therion's map editor, add „areas“ (SVG and by implication Inkscape too doesn't know such objects) and use all export possibilities of therion to export for example atlas.
6. The data could be produced by several members of team but the final export will have unified look without individual styles.
7. The „rountriping“ in therion is automatic including the morfing of sketches before drawing. You may not care about passages above or below, therion will morf them according to calculated coordinates of stations. If you change one surveying leg it will calculate new coordinates and automaticaly morf the drawing.
8. The structure of maps is absolutely independent of surveying data. So you may define several map structures from the one set of data.
9. To export from data drawn in scale 1:200 with many details the map 1:5000 filled with black is question of 5 short lines in configuration file. If you change the scale to 1:500 all the symbols will change the size and density automaticaly according new scale.
10. You may generate maps in different symbol sets, just because your group made decision to change one or several symbols, with one line in configuration file.
11. You may export maps or atlases in different languages – one line in configuration file
12. to add your maps or 3D models to surface model with image of surface is very simple.
13. Etc, etc, etc

Spike wrote: Users don't "debug" files they are manipulating.

:wink: Lazy users. I remember time where only way to communicate with computer was programing. The are many complex programs they use macro languages just to accelerate or automate the user needs (Excel). If you try to make web page you may not to do it (exception very primitive ones) without a simple knowledge of programing. Inscape itself has several "programers" tools. Etc...

Is this sample "draft" form of map?

Image
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Re: Therion

Postby Spike » Feb 1, 2012 9:33 am

You are correct I can't do all the things Therion does. My work flow does 2D clipping when morphing. That's it. Everything else is available. Seriously, that's it. I do all the rest. Even the plain text aspects. Even the 3D models. Even change symbols. Easily without debugging, perhaps programmers need to read Adam Smith?
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Re: Therion

Postby Crockett » Feb 1, 2012 10:00 am

Martin Sluka wrote:There is very big misunderstanding that therion is tool to draw maps.


That's a common misunderstanding about me too.

Good ideas can be copied and usually are. Sometimes the copy is better. Like Inkscape is better than Illustrator for some by being almost as good and free. A simple example I know but if Therion has valuable features that are otherwise unavailable maybe they could be emulated in a new better tool, or distinct set of tools, without the problems of the original Therion. Otherwise the T thing is not likely to ever get any traction.

I admire Martin's passionate advocacy but he has to put a lot of lipstick on the pig.
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Re: Therion

Postby Martin Sluka » Feb 1, 2012 10:40 am

Spike wrote:You are correct I can't do all the things Therion does. My work flow does 2D clipping when morphing. That's it. Everything else is available. Seriously, that's it. I do all the rest. Even the plain text aspects. Even the 3D models. Even change symbols. Easily without debugging, perhaps programmers need to read Adam Smith?


OK, I may imagine as you may do such a things in Inkscape. Are you sure it is for simple lazy user too? Me not.

But anyway it is your decision. And my too.

BTW on that sample are errors. They are easy recognizable. And they are simple repairable. That is "debugging" I means.
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Re: Therion

Postby Martin Sluka » Feb 1, 2012 10:47 am

Crockett wrote:I admire Martin's passionate advocacy but he has to put a lot of lipstick on the pig.


Mat 7:6
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Re: Therion

Postby Crockett » Feb 1, 2012 12:51 pm

Martin Sluka wrote:
Crockett wrote:I admire Martin's passionate advocacy but he has to put a lot of lipstick on the pig.


Mat 7:6


So are you saying that Therion (presumably the Therion that works that you are keeping from us) is a sacred pearl of great price and we are dogs and pigs who do not deserve it?

I was calling Therion a pig, not you. There is a difference between referring to objects like software with descriptive analogous names like "pig" and referring to people as dogs and pigs. This probably violates the terms of service here on Cavechat but don't worry. The moderators will take your side and I am intrigued not offended.

For those who don't already know here is Matthew Chapter 7 verse 6 from the New International Version:

6 “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces."

Link to a commentary:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_7:6

...and since we are exchanging biblical metaphorical references:

Proverbs 9:8
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Re: Therion

Postby GroundquestMSA » Feb 1, 2012 1:04 pm

Crockett wrote:...and since we are exchanging biblical metaphorical references:


Oh goody what great fun. How about Pr. 26:4? And before you turn that one around on me I'll go ahead and apply 26:5 to myself. Goodness.

(I don't really think you folks are fools. I'm just amazed that we're citing scripture over cave survey software.)
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Re: Therion

Postby NZcaver » Feb 1, 2012 4:47 pm

GroundquestMSA wrote:I'm just amazed that we're citing scripture over cave survey software.

Me too. Before you all get too carried away, please be aware our forum Terms of Service include this little biblical gem:

"The NSS Forum is not the place for arguments over local, state, or federal politics or politicians, discussions on religious beliefs and their credibility, or explicitly sexual posts of any type. Any posts the moderators decide violate this rule will be immediately removed and the author will be issued a warning."
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Re: Therion

Postby GroundquestMSA » Feb 1, 2012 4:57 pm

Yes sir. I'm finished now sir.
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Re: Therion

Postby Crockett » Feb 2, 2012 9:51 pm

Martin's two letter two numeral reply was elegant. We were not discussing religion. We were not even close to discussing religion. We were using analogies to discuss cave survey software. I guess we need to dumb it down or somebody might be amazed. Sorry Martin.

I'll mod myself off the board for a while now...again. A list of books we are prohibited from quoting would be useful.
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Re: Therion

Postby Martin Sluka » Feb 4, 2012 4:21 pm

I apologize myself to anybody I offended. I was not my intention. As you surely now, I'm not native english speaker so there is very easy not to understand something absolutely right for me.

For the future I'll not start any unproductive discussion as before. I may answer direct question or help somebody with Therion's problem and publish time from time interesting pages about application of Therion.

I hope it will be acceptable to Cavechat.
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