Any tips on surveying extremely muddy and wet caves?

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Any tips on surveying extremely muddy and wet caves?

Postby GroundquestMSA » Aug 28, 2011 3:35 pm

I plan to survey a 1000' or so of very muddy and wet passage. I'll be crawling in mud bedded stream for most of the survey. I'm using a Suunto tandem and will be using a rite in the rain survey book for the first time. Have you any advice for keeping things cleanish and at least legible? I'm most concerned about my book. I'll be almost completely immersed at several points and don't know if the paper is that waterproof. Do compass lenses fog under these conditions and if so is there any way to prevent fogging?
Thanks
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Re: Any tips on surveying extremely muddy and wet caves?

Postby Chads93GT » Aug 28, 2011 8:14 pm

put on a pair of laytex gloves when you start book keeping. It will help keeping your hands clean as water and mud will shed off of the gloves 100x easier than skin. The paper is "that" waterproof, but it will get saturated. Once it starts soaking water in, you have to be more carefil when drawing so you dont tear the paper. Lenses will fog due to steam in the air, or from breathing in them, not from simply being in water. Ive been surveying a river cave for the past 3 years in some of the worst conditions i can imagine. if you have the headlamp straps on your helmet, put your book in your head band as you crawl from station to station. having a clean rag in your helmet/head band helps also but sooner or later, if there is no water to clean your hands, and everything is pure mud, you have to call the survey to clean up and restart once you decontaminate your book. rags, helmet, ;)
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Re: Any tips on surveying extremely muddy and wet caves?

Postby Scott McCrea » Aug 28, 2011 8:46 pm

Here's a couple of things I do to help with mud: http://caveworthy.blogspot.com/2009/05/ ... -tape.html

Passing the book from person to person can sometimes keep it safer and cleaner.

Keeping the book in a pouch or something will help, too.

Chad, good idea with the latex gloves. I will try that next time.
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Re: Any tips on surveying extremely muddy and wet caves?

Postby Chads93GT » Aug 29, 2011 8:59 am

just bring an extra pair in case you tear them. learning how to crawl on your elbows only is definately a skill the sketcher must learn, especially in areas that are pure mud. The glove trick was taught to me by Paul Hauck.
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Re: Any tips on surveying extremely muddy and wet caves?

Postby DeanWiseman » Aug 29, 2011 11:23 am

I've been tempted to try having some kind of pressure-sensitive paper sealed inside a waterproof layer (or two) of ziplock, then using a stylus to record data. It means that corrections will be near impossible, though... but that's the general aspect of muddy & wet horror hole survey, anyway.

Another thing to consider, if you're going to be doing a bunch of these kind of surveys, is to get a hold of a sturdy, waterproof data-recording survey instrument such as a Shetland Attack Pony, etc. The SAP automatically stores the Azimuth/Incline data... so your written data-recording workload can be substantially reduced.

Good luck!

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Re: Any tips on surveying extremely muddy and wet caves?

Postby Aaron Addison » Aug 29, 2011 12:07 pm

Use DuraRite plastic paper. Available in standard "yellow book" sizes as well as 8.5 x 11. Using standard RnR paper is a waste of time.

http://www.riteintherain.com/Categories ... 9feb8738ef


Use a Silva 80 compass so that there is no viewfinder to fog or leak. The 80 compass is completely waterproof and floats.

http://www.datawelder.com/satellite/com ... 201_2.html

Cheers,

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Re: Any tips on surveying extremely muddy and wet caves?

Postby Bob Thrun » Aug 29, 2011 1:29 pm

Aaron Addison wrote:Use DuraRite plastic paper. Available in standard "yellow book" sizes as well as 8.5 x 11. Using standard RnR paper is a waste of time.

I use plastic leads with plastic paper or drafting film. 0.5 mm plastic leads break easily. 0.9 mm leads are stronger. Ordinary pencil markings can be washed or rubbed off. Regardless, I gently wash the mud off the notes after the survey. It always results in a net increase in legibility.

Is the Silva Model 80 still available? Silva, the manufacturer, can't use the Silva trademark in the US. Silva owns Brunton and imports thru Brunton using the Brunton or Nexus name. The Brunton site does not show the Model 80. The Model 80 appears only in a PDF on the Silva site.
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Re: Any tips on surveying extremely muddy and wet caves?

Postby Aaron Addison » Aug 29, 2011 3:40 pm

Bob Thrun wrote:I use plastic leads with plastic paper or drafting film. 0.5 mm plastic leads break easily. 0.9 mm leads are stronger. Ordinary pencil markings can be washed or rubbed off. Regardless, I gently wash the mud off the notes after the survey. It always results in a net increase in legibility.


I find .7mm works best for me, and gives a good balance of lead strength and ability to draw detail. I also routinely wash my notes under the faucet when I get home to remove mud. Your mileage may vary.


Bob Thrun wrote:Is the Silva Model 80 still available? Silva, the manufacturer, can't use the Silva trademark in the US. Silva owns Brunton and imports thru Brunton using the Brunton or Nexus name. The Brunton site does not show the Model 80. The Model 80 appears only in a PDF on the Silva site.


I think you can still buy them from European outlets. I have purchased 2 off of ebay in the last year for about $70 each, including one that was new in the box.

Cheers,

AA
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Re: Any tips on surveying extremely muddy and wet caves?

Postby JR-Orion » Aug 31, 2011 1:05 pm

Ever been so muddy that there's not a single square inch of clothes clean enough to wipe off the compass eyepiece? Or your glasses, if you wear them? Well, I've heard of people trying to lick the compass clean. That's dedication.
:grin:

So instead of getting that intimate with the mud, I might wear a cleaning cloth around my neck, tucked in under my coveralls and polypros.

edit-

Yes, I've seen the compass fog up in conditions like that.

And you might try a small waterproof hardcase for your book and instruments. Swago backpacks are also supposed to be waterproof.
Letting the days go by / water flowing underground
Into the blue again / in the silent water
Under the rocks and stones / there is water underground.
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Re: Any tips on surveying extremely muddy and wet caves?

Postby GroundquestMSA » Aug 31, 2011 2:48 pm

Chads93GT wrote:if you have the headlamp straps on your helmet, put your book in your head band as you crawl from station to station.

The problem is that I am both the sketcher and instrument person. Only one other person I cave with can fit in this particular passage and he has no surveying experience. I take azimuths and call them out and then sketch while he takes lrud measurements at the to station, sets the next station, and waits on me. That means we each have a book and I have both book and compass to worry about. There is no room for a helmet in several spots and I don't normally wear one while taking shots anyway so the book in the headband idea doesn't quite work. My wife said she would make me a survey bonnet from a tobbogan with pouches sewn on the sides for compass and book. We'll see what happens.
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Re: Any tips on surveying extremely muddy and wet caves?

Postby Chads93GT » Aug 31, 2011 2:53 pm

sounds like you best teach him to use a copmass before you go in and save yourself a ton of headaches and simply have him do double backsites throughout the entire passage. Been there, done that, got the T shirt. The head band on teh helmet was a recommendation for the BOOK when crawling, not for taking shots ;) We dont wear helmets either, screws up the compoass shots. I have surveyed plenty of "helmet off the head and being pushed ahead through the crawl with the book in it" survey's. But seriously, teach the guy to use the compass. YOu can teach him in your yard at night while lying on the ground and using a couple LED's to simulation stations a few inchest off the ground. A compass and clino isnt that hard to learn to use.
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Re: Any tips on surveying extremely muddy and wet caves?

Postby GroundquestMSA » Aug 31, 2011 3:20 pm

True. I'm just a little shy about trusting a first time compass user, especially one taught by me, a beginner. Also, the cave is pretty featurless so the sketching shouldn't be horrible.
Your point about the helmet was understood, I simply meant that since I had both book and compass, I wouldn't be wearing one. That being the case, I don't intend to bring it into the small section of the cave at all. Just another thing to drag around.
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Re: Any tips on surveying extremely muddy and wet caves?

Postby Chads93GT » Aug 31, 2011 3:35 pm

GroundquestMSA wrote:True


That will eliviate you of the problem of trying to do 2 things, and it will remove the need for 2 books. We never use 2 books unless we have 2 sketchers sketching. I can write numbers down fast enough, its not a problem for them to yell measurements and me confirm them vocally. At least then you will only have to deal with keeping your book clean, and he will only have to worry about keeping the instrument clean, instead of 1 person doing both. Ive surveyed many wet, muddy crawls, where the lead guy has to go in backwards because its so tight that he cant turn around anywhere, so he just keeps going backwards. The only problem with this is usually that means while I crawl in behind him sketching while he sets stations, takes shots and we pull tape, I have to back otu of the entire survey when we are done, unless we hit a pocket big enough along the way that I can get turned around in (usually not the case). I feel your pain man, there just isnt an easy way to do it, so you just have to do it the best you can.
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Re: Any tips on surveying extremely muddy and wet caves?

Postby GroundquestMSA » Aug 31, 2011 5:17 pm

What's the farthest you have surveyed in such a fashion, without being able to turn around?
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Re: Any tips on surveying extremely muddy and wet caves?

Postby Chads93GT » Aug 31, 2011 9:21 pm

Usually the passages pinch out in such a way that the guy cant back up any further after a couple hundred feet. I did a 23 shot passage that was 100 feet long like that, very tight, very meandering and it was comfortably high, it was just shoulder to shoulder and 2 feet at the most, averaged 12" to 15" though. One spot had a high ceiling of a whopping 2.5 feet and I managed to wad myself up into a ball and turn around on the way out. im 6'3" It sucked. We have had to do 200-250 foot surveys like that though hopeing they break out and get bigger but usually they pinch out to the point the lead guy who is smaller than me, cant fit any further.
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