Any tips on surveying extremely muddy and wet caves?

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Re: Any tips on surveying extremely muddy and wet caves?

Postby GroundquestMSA » Sep 18, 2011 1:15 pm

Thanks for all the suggestions. Wearing latex gloves and taping the compass lenses surely helped a lot. My spiffy new survey hat (an extra long ladies tobbogan with a massive cuff sewn into seperate pouches) worked brilliantly for the compass, pencils, station markers, and a 3"x5" book.
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Re: Any tips on surveying extremely muddy and wet caves?

Postby Scott McCrea » Sep 18, 2011 1:23 pm

GroundquestMSA wrote:My spiffy new survey hat (an extra long ladies tobbogan with a massive cuff sewn into seperate pouches) worked brilliantly for the compass, pencils, station markers, and a 3"x5" book.

This hat you describe, will require that a picture be posted. Sounds interesting.
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Re: Any tips on surveying extremely muddy and wet caves?

Postby Footleg » Nov 24, 2011 8:22 am

I have surveyed in such conditions using Suunto sighting instruments and paper (waterproof) notebook in the past. Had to lie on my back in the liquid mud to keep my hands and the book out of the mud (flat out bedding crawl). The instrument reader managed to keep the instruments from getting too muddy to read for half the survey. Tape person had to lick the mud off the tape to read it a few times. Took a second trip to complete the section as we had to abort to clean up the gear first time round.

But these days you really need to go paperless. I put the PDA and the DistoX in waterproof Aquapaq pouches. Mud can be wiped off. All numbers are transmitted via bluetooth. Sketching is done on screen and can be corrected too. Now you only need to lick the mud off the PDA screen :grin:

Never looked back since we switched to this kit. Great in wet crawls as the survey gear can just float along with you between readings. Complete beginners can fire the DistoX with good precision too. In most cases water can be found to wash any mud off the windows of the Aquapak cases if they get too muddy to use. DistoX range is reduced due to slight diffusion of the laser beam when used in a plastic case like this, but the precision is still there. To be honest being forced to keep survey legs a little shorter make the sketching much better anyway, so it is a winner.
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Re: Any tips on surveying extremely muddy and wet caves?

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Nov 24, 2011 11:12 am

I guess I'm kind of old-school in that I still use pencil, paper and Suunto most days. The classics are classics for a reason, yes?

If I'm reading instruments, I usually keep them around my neck. Don't make the cardinal error of putting the instruments on your chest when surveying a crawl; even after years of surveying, I made this mistake over the summer and cracked the facing of my trusty Tandem. Let's chalk it up to not reading instruments often! Anyway, it's better to slide the instrument around to your back and put it down your base layer or wetsuit so it rests between your shoulder blades when you're moving between stations. This accomplishes two goals:

1. It keeps the instrument protected from the mud, it keeps it from swinging around and banging on things, and it keeps it in a location where it's unlikely to be crushed.
2. This is often overlooked, but you need to keep the instrument WARM or your breath and evaporating sweat will condense on the lens of the eyepiece. It sucks sliding a cold, aluminum tandem under your wetsuit and against your skin, but it sucks even more having to try and lick the eyepiece (or remove it and rinse) all the time.

As for sketching, in REALLY wet caves you can use DuraRite instead of Rite-in-the-Rain; it's entirely synthetic and won't eventually wet-out or delaminate like Rite-in-the-Rain does when dunked a couple of times or subjected to constant spray. The downside is it's not quite as nice to write on, smudges easily, and can be fussy when you try to re-draw something in a spot where you've previously used an eraser... but them's the breaks. If you're using Rite-in-the-Rain, no matter how water-resistant they say it is, DO NOT get it wet. Most ear dips can be negotiated with the book held above the water like a waiter bringing a pizza to your table. If you have a swim to deal with, or a really awkward ear dip where you absolutely need both hands, put the book in a drybag or Swaygo pack until you're back in a dry-ish spot. Clipboards will fit in a large Swaygo.

Rule #1 for sketching in muddy, sloppy passage is to never touch anything dirty with your hands. Use gloves when moving between stations or attempting a climb, and remove them when sketching. While sketching and moving through the passage, don't use your hands! Trust me, you can climb better with your feet + elbows + shoulders + butt + whatever, while holding a sketch book, than you think you can. If you get mud on your hands, wipe it on the cleanest thing you can find; sometimes this means I'm reaching inside my coveralls to wipe my hands on my base layer, and sometimes this means I'm wiping my hands on any remaining clean spots on my survey team members. Sorry, guys! :)

There is some value to using a GGG "survey purse" or one of those canvas Rite-in-the-Rain binders, although don't count on the zippers being useful in any way; think of them as condom-style protection against goo. I actually prefer to carry the yellow survey binder on its own, and I slip it beneath my strap of my spare headlamp for transporting between survey stations. The alternative is, well, carrying it in your teeth or something, which I assure you sucks.
"Although it pains me to say it, in this case Jeff is right. Plan accordingly." --Andy Armstrong
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Re: Any tips on surveying extremely muddy and wet caves?

Postby GroundquestMSA » Nov 24, 2011 12:22 pm

Footleg wrote:But these days you really need to go paperless.


Nosir, I don't. I'm not looking to make the survey process a breeze, just looking for some ways to make sure my trip is not entirely wasted due to destroyed and illegible records. Additionally, I'm a low class laborer who may never have the extra hundreds/thousands to spend on fancy equipment. And while I want to be as accurate as possible, I have come to terms with the fact that I, as an independent and isolated caver, am never going to be mapping any massive or prestigious caverns that require near perfection for purposes of navigation or rescue. Bob Thrun wrote in a Nylon Hwy. (20) article, "Cave surveying does not have to be super accurate." Amen.

Thanks Jeff, for the tips, I am planning to return to my miserable cave for a final push as soon as water levels are a little lower. I have to crawl and squeeze in the stream for 1000' before I get to the end of my current survey. Are there many very small waterproof packs that I could use to transport my stuff back there? There isn't really room to wear one so I'll be pushing or dragging it most of the time.
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Re: Any tips on surveying extremely muddy and wet caves?

Postby Chads93GT » Nov 24, 2011 1:22 pm

Try a small drybag?
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Re: Any tips on surveying extremely muddy and wet caves?

Postby GroundquestMSA » Nov 24, 2011 1:39 pm

Excuse me, I haven't a clue what exactly you refer to or where to find one. I = ignoramus.
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Re: Any tips on surveying extremely muddy and wet caves?

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Nov 24, 2011 4:22 pm

GroundquestMSA wrote:Excuse me, I haven't a clue what exactly you refer to or where to find one. I = ignoramus.


A dry bag? Fair enough. A dry bag is something you put inside your cave pack to keep everything inside of it from getting wet. Think of it this way: your dry bag keeps your stuff dry, and your cave pack keeps the dry bag from being shredded. They're relatively inexpensive and pretty reliable. It's a pain to put stuff in and take it back out all the time, of course, but these are certainly useful for getting your stuff from the cave entrance to the tie-in station, and back out, without ruining your notes or instruments in the process! Of course, you can use freezer ziplocs, too, but it's worth the very small investment to go with a dry bag.

A yellow plastic survey book will fit well in a 5L or 10L SealLine Baja drybag, like this one*. I find these to be more durable than the SealLine "black canyon" dry bags (no matter what their marketing people say), any of the transparent "see bag" styles, anything with the word "lightweight" in it or the similar-in-construction Seattle Sports drybags. They're also more reliably waterproof than the Seattle Sports bags, in my opinion and experience.

It DOES sound like a drybag is your best bet. Choose one that is slightly smaller than your cave pack.

As Chad will attest, carrying your stuff inside a dry bag (or a cur-tec barrel / "darren drum") is standard procedure for Ozarks cavers who encounter plenty of water and mud on their survey trips. As you might imagine, this is also a great way to carry your spare batteries and headlamp, an extra fleece top, emergency blanket and anything else you take into a wet or grimy cave.

*(Full disclosure: I work for Rock/Creek. You can also purchase cave-worthy dry bags from Inner Mountain Outfitters, On Rope 1 or Karst Sports)
"Although it pains me to say it, in this case Jeff is right. Plan accordingly." --Andy Armstrong
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Re: Any tips on surveying extremely muddy and wet caves?

Postby Mudduck » Nov 25, 2011 10:22 am

Small dry bags from Wal-Mart around 12 bucks for 3 pack in the camping section. As was said u still want a small pack to put it in they have those in the purse section for under 10. Been using both for years for a cavers on a budget works good
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Re: Any tips on surveying extremely muddy and wet caves?

Postby Martin Sluka » Nov 26, 2011 9:37 am

Jeff Bartlett wrote:I guess I'm kind of old-school in that I still use pencil, paper and Suunto most days. The classics are classics for a reason, yes?

GroundquestMSA wrote: Additionally, I'm a low class laborer who may never have the extra hundreds/thousands to spend on fancy equipment.


Anyway you may replace tape and clino with: Bosch GLM80 Laser Rangefinder with Inclinometer Function and lithium ion battery

New functionality due to integrated 360° incline sensor
Precise and easy to operate due to illuminated display which turns automatically
Up to 25,000 measurements per battery charge due to Li-Ion technology
Can be recharged via standard micro USB port - accus
IP54 dust and water resistance
Measures up to 80 metres
Drop resitant up to 1 metre
Automatic storage of the last 20 measured values and one constant
Timer function can be switched on/off - for precise measurement from difficult positions
Small and handy - Reliable assistant on any construction site due to robust design
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Re: Any tips on surveying extremely muddy and wet caves?

Postby Footleg » Dec 19, 2011 8:20 am

GroundquestMSA wrote:
Footleg wrote:But these days you really need to go paperless.


Nosir, I don't. I'm not looking to make the survey process a breeze, just looking for some ways to make sure my trip is not entirely wasted due to destroyed and illegible records.

"Cave surveying does not have to be super accurate." Amen.


Excuse my quaintly English use of language. I was not in any way trying to tell anyone what they should do. Just trying to offer a recommendation. I fully understand the detrimentally high relative cost of digital surveying kit for personal use. I am lucky enough to be a member of a club who fund the expensive toys that enable us to try out these modern methods of surveying. It would be overkill for a small cave to purchase costly kit.

Whatever side of the 'importance of accuracy' debate people lie on, my recommendation was made on the basis of what works best very muddy or wet conditions. It is perfectly possible to mess up on the accuracy with digital kit, which needs to be calibrated correctly and used correctly. It is after all only measuring magnetic field and that can be screwed up by all sorts of things (magnetic anomalies, cavers lights or metallic objects worn by the surveyor or in the cave, etc.). For those who do feel that accuracy is the most important thing however, be aware that the majority of errors come from transcribing the numbers the instruments are showing to the final numbers used to plot the survey (reading errors, mishearing the numbers read out, writing the wrong number despite what you heard, not being able to read the numbers written down once you get out of the cave). This is especially true on long hard trips where tiredness is a big factor. So the paperless method is a real winner if accuracy is your thing. But also a real winner in hostile conditions.

For people who have not come across the Aquapak cases I mentioned to waterproof the digital instruments and PDAs. Here is their website:
http://usstore.aquapac.net/
I am using a Small Whanganui Case for my DistoX and one of their old PDA cases for the PDA.

(I am in no way affiliated with Aquapak. Just a happy user of their products.)
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Re: Any tips on surveying extremely muddy and wet caves?

Postby GroundquestMSA » Dec 19, 2011 12:42 pm

Understood. And thank you.
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