How to get map info....found virgin passage?

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How to get map info....found virgin passage?

Postby self-deleted_user » Jul 23, 2011 11:31 am

I guess I'm hoping for more ideas here. I am a member of the MKC (MI Karst Conservancy) and was up there earlier this week as I had friend from TAG visiting and we were doing the fun MI stuff up in the UP, included a stop-off at the cave. Which, I was excited about as there were some holes I had been wanting to check out, but never could, as we were always taking through large groups of geology undergrad students. I had asked Tim (who has been doing these trips for the last 10-ish years) if these holes had ever been checked out and he basically shrugged "i dunno I don't think so".

I have been told there is a survey for the cave, but have not been able to get my hands on it despite repeated requests. Considering they are always saying it is 640meters I'm guessing it has been surveyed at some point at least to some extent probably back in 1987 when they acquired the property it is on.

But the other day...one of these holes was simply a higher crawl about 15 ft that popped back into the main route (it was about a 10 ft climb up, probably why no one uses it hahaha) The other though was more of a crack not far from the main entrance. David (my friend from TAG) couldn't get into it, but after taking off my outer jacket I was able to. I went in a bit more than my body length (it stayed very tight, and was a downward sloping crevace that got smaller at the bottom) so because the only way I could get in further was putting weight on the smaller area which just had small "breakdown" loose rocks I was worried about them slipping and getting a foot/leg caught or something, and being too far in to have any help to get me out and very far away from any additional help so I didn't push it further than about 10 ft but I could see a good 20-30 ft still ahead before it bent too much out of my line of sight. It did look like the further in the more open it got overall.

Considering I've *asked* about this hole before and no one knew, I'm guessing no one has gone in there before. :grin: But I'd like to somehow find out for sure. From whom I've seen of the MKC, there are probably 2-4 others who could make it into the crack (if they cared enough to check it out, the 2-4 I know of don't cave anymore to my knowledge) but at least if some peeps were around who *could* get in there I'd totally push it.

me up in the crevice
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David was able to pass me the camera after that shot and I took the best I could get looking forward...it's really hard to gather depth/scale from the picture but it goes as I said...
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Re: How to get map info....found virgin passage?

Postby rlboyce » Jul 23, 2011 1:39 pm

I've been in situations similar to that. Sometimes it is virgin, sometimes not, sometimes one can never know for sure. I'd be surprised if everyone else has overlooked the holes you're talking of, but then again, there are a lot of lazy people out there. When I just don't know (such as in your case where certain buttheads are too lazy to give an answer) then my approach is to explore it as far as possible and document it. Maybe I'll find out later someone's already been there, maybe not. It is nice to know if the cave has already been documented or not, but sometimes as a cave explorer you just don't have that luxury. For me, knowing if it's virgin is not a prerequisite, although if it's virgin it does give me additional motivation. : ) Good luck.
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Re: How to get map info....found virgin passage?

Postby WVCaver2011 » Jul 25, 2011 9:01 pm

I have also been in situations like you as well. I've found numerous caves that were virgin as well as a few that were not. The non-virgin caves i've found were half ass mapped.... Many leads not shown.... Many pits not documented.... miles of cave not shown on map. It just takes one lead that no one checked to get your miles of cave for some odd reason it tends to be the smallest or nastiest leads... :wink: BTW, how was the air in that hole?

First to find if your cave has or has not been mapped/documented I would buy a publication on caves and karst of your county or state. If you dont have one then it's basically a guessing game. The only people who know about the map(s) are those who made them and those who received them. If you cant find those people then you'll never know.

Hope that helped out some.
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Re: How to get map info....found virgin passage?

Postby self-deleted_user » Jul 25, 2011 10:24 pm

thanks. Tim is gonna try and track one down for me when he gets back from Colorado. I did not say where the passage was in case it was new they'd need me to find it ;)

it was really tight squeeze....it wasn't noticibly blowing but the temp in it was a bit cooler than the main passage if that means anything xD
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Re: How to get map info....found virgin passage?

Postby WVCaver2011 » Jul 26, 2011 7:07 pm

Sungura wrote:thanks. Tim is gonna try and track one down for me when he gets back from Colorado. I did not say where the passage was in case it was new they'd need me to find it ;)

it was really tight squeeze....it wasn't noticibly blowing but the temp in it was a bit cooler than the main passage if that means anything xD


Do you recall what the temperature was outside and inside the cave at the time?
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Re: How to get map info....found virgin passage?

Postby self-deleted_user » Jul 27, 2011 12:52 am

I...don't carry thermometers on me lol but "warm" outside (85-87f something like that) and "cold" inside (I want to say the cave airtemp is around 48-50f or so).
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Re: How to get map info....found virgin passage?

Postby DeanWiseman » Jul 27, 2011 5:01 am

rlboyce wrote:I've been in situations similar to that. Sometimes it is virgin, sometimes not, sometimes one can never know for sure. I'd be surprised if everyone else has overlooked the holes you're talking of, but then again, there are a lot of lazy people out there.


I was surveying in Lechuguilla Cave, where 5 and 6-letter survey designators have to be used--we even had to bring a list of letter combinations. EYEKC1...2... etc. This was how complicated the cave was. Imagine the surprise when one team found an easy survey passage directly connected to the C-survey. And it wasn't like it was a hidden passage or anything. When you're following 30 foot-high borehole, a 4-foot side tube doesn't seem so big. Surely somebody has checked that tube out??!! :doh:

Same thing in an Indiana cave that had seen visitation for several decades. Everyone was so keyed in on going down the pit, no one had bothered to look at the little ledge that was inconveniently situated around a corner from the main rigging point--sort of like trying to look around the corner of a bathroom stall. You could only see it if you turned the right way just as you were at the top of the rope. Nevertheless, when a person got enough motivation to check it out... turned out the passage beyond it was unmapped and virgin. :shrug:

From the looks of the photos, and the description, I'm betting no one has gone in there. Just be careful. It sounds hairy...


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Re: How to get map info....found virgin passage?

Postby self-deleted_user » Jul 27, 2011 11:06 am

Awesome, thanks =) And I will be careful, being careful is why I didn't go further when I was there. Maybe I was too cautious but eh I decided to cave to my getting nervous haha. I like tight passages though, I think they are fun. I'm like...claustrophilic! (instead of phobic, philic...get it?)
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Re: How to get map info....found virgin passage?

Postby JR-Orion » Jul 27, 2011 2:52 pm

Great pic, Sungura. As my three year old mini-caver would say, "that looks a little cramped."

I'm all for checking out those odd little cracks and crevices off the main trail. Never know what you might find. Even for a place as heavily travelled as Maquoketa Caves -it is a very popular, wide open state park- I found two spots that weren't on the map and seemed like they might go a bit, if I could fit in there. Were they truly virgin? Maybe not, probably not even. And I can't go back to verify since the caves are closed now. But still, I like to check out everything.
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Re: How to get map info....found virgin passage?

Postby self-deleted_user » Jul 27, 2011 4:25 pm

Thanks! Well I am as close to finding a map as I can be. I just picked up my photos I had sent to colorado with Aaron and he said he has the whateveritiscalled (i forget) from when the convention was in MI, so if there is a map of this cave, it outa be in there (it is the longest known cave in MI after all!) so he'll check when he gets home. Come to think of it, if he forgets, I have a contact over in Toronto, Ontario Canada, who has that same guidebook I wonder what happened to him copying some of the caves in MI info from that and sending it to me...I'll have to shoot him an email too. With 3 people looking for this map, if it is to be found, should be, I'd think. If not...uh let's get up there and survey the dang thing!
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Re: How to get map info....found virgin passage?

Postby self-deleted_user » Jul 27, 2011 9:42 pm

AHHA. Contact in Toronto came through, it was in the guidebook for the MI convention.

...andddd what I squeezed into was either a parallel route that is shown on the map (which, if so, isn't really to scale width-wise as it is shown as just as wide as the main passage which makes no sense) or that passage is that side crawl that is in my opinion easier that jutting around to the left in one part.

So...i still don't know for sure if it is new even with the map in hand LOL.

The more I stare at it though and put together where what bend is (...small cave, done it like 7 times now? and I have good spacial memory so I'm going through the cave in my mind as i look at the survey) and I think the parallel route is supposed to be what I crawled into. Survey date is 1975-76 so no wonder everyone forgot about it :P I think a split where the center zooming in now I see has 4 little hashmark lines near the edges, which I'm guesing is supposed to be "low ceiling" which is where you can climb to the left or crawl on the right (or go straight if you like really low belly crawls in freezing water), which means where the parallel route to that section is, would be what I crawled into. There is no legend at all...I'm still trying to figure out what "clouds" mean! I'm thinking it's the areas that there is no "ceiling" based on their locations.

Oh well it was fun trying anyway.

Interestingly though, a dead end short passage we also crawled in, is *not* on the map, nor is that about 10 ft up high crawl, anywhere that I can tell. They could totally add a few meters to the survey! hah!
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Re: How to get map info....found virgin passage?

Postby WVCaver2011 » Jul 28, 2011 6:39 pm

Sungura wrote:I...don't carry thermometers on me lol but "warm" outside (85-87f something like that) and "cold" inside (I want to say the cave airtemp is around 48-50f or so).


In normal caving conditions you would have had air blowing out or sucking into that hole if there was considerable passage. For all we know though it could be a small crawlway for a good ways and wouldnt have enough volume to allow a lot of air movement. This is just a theory (literally) but it's not always true in the caving world but in theory if you didnt have any cracks or crevices leading in from the surface, or anything else to disturb the airflow it would be true in most situations....

When you get a little more experience under your belt you will be able to tell what cave temperature is to within a few degrees of the actual value. You may also be able to tell the time of day if you're used to being underground for longer periods of time... I'm usually within a half hour but im still gaining experience like every caver, amature or legend.
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Re: How to get map info....found virgin passage?

Postby GroundquestMSA » Jul 28, 2011 8:34 pm

I don't mean to be a simpleton but the photo looking into the passage appears to show mudstains on the floor. Since there doesn't seem to be any dirt elsewhere in the passage I must wonder where that "trail" came from...?
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Re: How to get map info....found virgin passage?

Postby driver3871 » Sep 15, 2011 5:07 pm

[quote="Sungura"]

Considering I've *asked* about this hole before and no one knew, I'm guessing no one has gone in there before. :grin: But I'd like to somehow find out for sure. From whom I've seen of the MKC, there are probably 2-4 others who could make it into the crack (if they cared enough to check it out, the 2-4 I know of don't cave anymore to my knowledge) but at least if some peeps were around who *could* get in there I'd totally push it.

Ive been known to make it into seemingly impossible spaces..
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