DistoX boards for the DistoDXT models

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Re: DistoX boards for the DistoDXT models

Postby WVCaver2011 » Dec 7, 2011 10:09 am

LWB wrote:Yes, Beat know my views on external batteries - and I understand his reasons for not wanting to go there. And Beat thinks testing with an external battery makes sense. He just doesn't like it as a long term solution.

So I plan to test with an external battery, that should prove if the quick loss of calibration is due to the batteries. Hoped to have data by now, but had a bluetooth problem. Can't calibrate without bluetooth working.


Well Im glad you are working on it as well! 2 heads are better than one. Lord knows this stuff is way over my head or otherwise I would be working on it myself. I try to do as much as I can to keep people updated but that's practically all I can do with my limited knowledge in electro-engineering...
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Re: DistoX boards for the DistoDXT models

Postby LWB » Dec 7, 2011 11:28 am

Yeah, it is definitely a group project. Tom ordered the parts, assembled the board, and installed it in the DXT. Then it took Tim & I and a flurry of emails with Beat to figure out how to program the PIC. Everything seemed be functioning fine as a Disto X, but bluetooth (can't calibrate without it), so I shipped it back to Tom to debug that. That bluetooth chip (the biggest one on the board) has dozens and dozens of pins. Fortunately only about a dozen are used. I'm guessing either a bad connection (surface mount - a bear to hand solder) or a bad chip. Tom is a wiz at electronics repair of all kinds (and has fixed a few A3s also), I'm sure he will get that sorted out soon Tom wants to experiment with demagnetizing. Probably worth a try. But if the magnetic fields are changing on the batteries that fast, the benefits may be very shortlived.

By the way - the Pelican 1015 case is a perfect fit for the DXT - you would have thought it was designed to fit. The 1015 is not available everywhere, but it can be found online.
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Re: DistoX boards for the DistoDXT models

Postby WVCaver2011 » Dec 7, 2011 9:09 pm

LWB wrote:Yeah, it is definitely a group project. Tom ordered the parts, assembled the board, and installed it in the DXT. Then it took Tim & I and a flurry of emails with Beat to figure out how to program the PIC. Everything seemed be functioning fine as a Disto X, but bluetooth (can't calibrate without it), so I shipped it back to Tom to debug that. That bluetooth chip (the biggest one on the board) has dozens and dozens of pins. Fortunately only about a dozen are used. I'm guessing either a bad connection (surface mount - a bear to hand solder) or a bad chip. Tom is a wiz at electronics repair of all kinds (and has fixed a few A3s also), I'm sure he will get that sorted out soon Tom wants to experiment with demagnetizing. Probably worth a try. But if the magnetic fields are changing on the batteries that fast, the benefits may be very shortlived.

By the way - the Pelican 1015 case is a perfect fit for the DXT - you would have thought it was designed to fit. The 1015 is not available everywhere, but it can be found online.


Great! Sounds like lots of accomplishments are coming through! I hope to see the boards available at the beginning of next year! That would be excellent but perfection takes time. No use in selling a faulty device. I hope Tom gets things figured out soon!

Yea, but will that Pelican case be able to fit the Disto X with the external battery? I've got a DXT and those things are a BEAST compared to other Leica models... I actually feel comfortable taking them into caves and using them hardcore without having to worry too much.
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Re: DistoX boards for the DistoDXT models

Postby LWB » Dec 7, 2011 10:50 pm

We will not know until we are able to do some testing. And experimenting My next testing window is New Years. And should the external battery pack prove wildly successful, it may take some work to convince Beat it is a viable option. Too soon to tell yet. I have adapted my calibration / test fixture to fit the new DXT, but I probably have to make more mods to accommodate an external battery connection, since the wire would come out the battery door.

An external battery pack would not fit in the Pelican 1015 with the DXT, but depending on the method of connecting the battery pack, it should still fit okay.
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Re: DistoX boards for the DistoDXT models

Postby Extremeophile » Dec 8, 2011 1:07 am

LWB wrote:By the way - the Pelican 1015 case is a perfect fit for the DXT - you would have thought it was designed to fit.

Yes, it is.

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Re: DistoX boards for the DistoDXT models

Postby Martin Sluka » Dec 8, 2011 2:01 am

LWB wrote: but I probably have to make more mods to accommodate an external battery connection, since the wire would come out the battery door. An external battery pack would not fit in the Pelican 1015 with the DXT, but depending on the method of connecting the battery pack, it should still fit okay.

For first tests you don't need any special waterproof case for external batteries. I used very simple one more than 10 year and it worked in caves without problems. The cave water is not a very good conductor. :waving:

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Re: DistoX boards for the DistoDXT models

Postby WVCaver2011 » Dec 8, 2011 2:15 am

LWB wrote:We will not know until we are able to do some testing. And experimenting My next testing window is New Years. And should the external battery pack prove wildly successful, it may take some work to convince Beat it is a viable option. Too soon to tell yet. I have adapted my calibration / test fixture to fit the new DXT, but I probably have to make more mods to accommodate an external battery connection, since the wire would come out the battery door.

An external battery pack would not fit in the Pelican 1015 with the DXT, but depending on the method of connecting the battery pack, it should still fit okay.


Okay, please keep us up to date with your latest advancement! Im always willing to hear any advancements or even estimates on dates when the boards will be available.

Thanks!
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Re: DistoX boards for the DistoDXT models

Postby LWB » Dec 10, 2011 1:27 pm

I'm afraid estimates on board availability would have to come from Beat. Even if the current design is a success with an external battery (and Beat is willing to produce them with that limitation), he will still have to have more boards made and then have them "populated". I don't know the timetable for that.

I have installed external battery pack (using AA batteries)for a DXT (small hole in the battery cover for the wire). Works fine. Dan (with his machine shop) says he will cut a slot in my test fixture to accommodate the wire. I need to do some testing to see what kind of EM field the wires produce. And if Tom gets the bluetooth running, we will be good to calibrate and test over New Years.

It takes a team of cavers to accomplish a tiny piece of what Beat has done. No single one of us has all the necessary skills. As Beat said he has spent "countless hours" on the Disto X project.
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Re: DistoX boards for the DistoDXT models

Postby Martin Sluka » Dec 10, 2011 2:08 pm

LWB wrote: Dan (with his machine shop) says he will cut a slot in my test fixture to accommodate the wire. I need to do some testing to see what kind of EM field the wires produce.


My experiences are that the wire itself doesn't have an influence to compass, but battery pack has. But distance about 40 cm is enough to eliminate it. Tested with german Freiberg geological compass and Vulcain topofil compass.
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Re: DistoX boards for the DistoDXT models

Postby LWB » Dec 10, 2011 3:17 pm

Martin,

Thanks, I was hoping it will not be a problem. I thought I would check with a Suunto, a Disto X and the gaussmeter mode on a DUSI and seen what I learn. My experiments with lights was that the Disto X would be affected at about twice the distance of a Suunto.

Not a problem to keep the battery at least 16 inches away. I was probably going to leave the wire about 3-4 feet long so the battery pack can just sit on the ground when the Disto X is in the test fixture for calibration and testing.
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Re: DistoX boards for the DistoDXT models

Postby WVCaver2011 » Dec 10, 2011 5:48 pm

Wow, I didnt actually realize what you meant when you guys said outside of the box. I was thinking it would be enough to just attach the battery pack to the outside of the box. It's crazy it has to practically be on the ground to be far enough away. That would be a disadvantage but the advantages would out weigh the disadvantages IMO. I hope the demagnetation works and hopefully something can be done with that to keep the pack within the box or attached to the outside.
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Re: DistoX boards for the DistoDXT models

Postby LWB » Dec 10, 2011 7:00 pm

Actually we don't know how far away the batteries should be. Probably a foot would be fine, but based on the A3 Disto X experience 2 inches might be fine. But when we are experimenting, the idea is to have them far enough away we can be sure they don't have an effect. My reason to set the battery pack on the ground is to have it out of the way of the tripod for testing. I would image having the battery pack in your pocket for cave surveying purposes, and connect the cord when you are ready to take a shot.

If an external battery was to be fastened to the Disto DXT case itself, you would want to connect it near the top. The magnetometer is in the bottom corner. The DXT probably has less than half the distance between the magnetometer and the batteries as in the A3. And I think external batteries may make the A3 Disto X calibration last longer than a month. The ideal thing for this would be one of those lithium batteries like the DUSI and Pony use (thin, flat and rectangular). But you would need a way to charge it. That would be a separate piece of equipment.

One person posted a recommendation of demagnetizing the batteries before calibrating and then between trips (with the A3 Disto X) to keep the calibration "good". (My experiments with trying to demagnetize batteries were failures, but Tom has produced a better de-magnetizer to experiment with). The current problem with the DXT Disto X is that the calibration lasts about 30 minutes - not 30 days. Not possible to demagnetize the batteries every 30 minutes on a cave trip.
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Re: DistoX boards for the DistoDXT models

Postby Bob Thrun » Dec 11, 2011 5:48 pm

I have a marine sighting compass with a light in it. It uses a AAA zinc carbon battery that has no steel shell. I wnet to a battery store to find it. This kind of battery has less energy than alkaline cells. I would rather use this kind of battery than try to demagnetize other batteries.

I just tried to remove the steel shell from an alkaline cell. I will not try that again. Alkaline cells are not like heavy duty zinc carbon batteries. The sealed zinc carbon (or zinc chloride) batteries have a steel shell, a paper or plastic liner, and then a zinc shell. Alkaline cells have just a steel shell. Perhaps some manufacturer can be persuaded to make zinc chloride batteries with a plastic outer shell.

http://ca.rayovac.com/technical/pdfs/pg_battery.pdf
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Re: DistoX boards for the DistoDXT models

Postby WVCaver2011 » Dec 11, 2011 7:22 pm

LWB,

You have great ideas. I wouldnt mind carrying a battery pack in my pocket during the survey trip taking into account that the Disto X has its advantages over all other survey instruments. Whatever gets this thing up and running and not too much of a hassle would be fine with me!
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Re: DistoX boards for the DistoDXT models

Postby LWB » Dec 11, 2011 9:49 pm

Bob,

That is interesting about the zinc carbon with no steel shell. Was that what was recommended for the marine compass?

As I understand the problem (and Beat tested a bunch of batteries with the A3 Disto X), the issue is the change in the magnetic field as the battery is used. I suppose that change could be amplified by the steel shell. The AAA batteries he tested show that the Lithium AAA (non-rechargeable variety) changed the least over time. I doubt he included zinc carbon with no steel shell, but I'd have to check what he wrote (I think it is on his website).
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