Roundtripping Multiple Levels

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Roundtripping Multiple Levels

Postby HKalnitz » Apr 28, 2011 9:57 pm

Hi
Just starting to roundtrip a large section of cave. There are three main, largely separated levels of cave that wind back on forth on top of each other continiously. In reading through the various references in roundtripping it seems to make sense that this area should be broken into three levels and round tripped separately, and then combined.

My question is this - how are the separate levels accurately combined in the final ? I am assuming that each level will have its own .svg file that will go in and out of walls and illustrator. I plan on detaching the levels I don't want to see in each individual .svg. Given the data I have I will probably work downward from the top level.

So once i have at least two layers complete, drafted and roundtripped, how do I recombine them in Illustrator? I understand this is no more difficult then adding a new layer in illustrator, but my real question is how to accurately put them together, so they remain perfectly registered to each other . I can think of putting in artificial witness marks to match each one of them up. Is this the best way (again assuming that the witness marks remain in the legend layer)?

Jim Olsons Caveillustrator plugin for Illustrator 9 always placed (compass generated) survey referenced to 0,0,0 in illustrator. However, as far as I can find Walls does no such thing. Or does the rountripping process bring recoverable location data along with the drafting for a ride? Is there some other way to recombine these levels?

I know several regular contributors here are working these issues now, so I hoping I am not the first. Jeff, Stan, Derek?

Thanks for any help in this process...
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Re: Roundtripping Multiple Levels

Postby Stan Allison » Apr 30, 2011 3:10 pm

Hi Howard,

This is the workflow that I use when combining multiple cave levels into a single cave map. First of all I divide the cave survey up into levels by using the WALLS Segment command. I then export a lineplot of each level of cave as a separate SVG and draft that level of cave in Illustrator and roundtrip as necessary. Once I have all of the various layer maps to the point where I am ready to combine them, I will then export a lineplot with all levels together from WALLS as a single SVG. I then group each layer from my level maps with the lineplot from the level maps and copy this over to the overall lineplot document where I align the partial lineplot with the overall lineplot and then delete the partial lineplot. I then turn the groups of the layer maps into the proper layers. There may be a more efficient way to combine the maps, but this method doesn't take very long and since I don't combine the levels very often, it seems to work for me. If you need more detailed instructions let me know. I will be curious to hear how it works for you. Perhaps you will find a better way.

Stan
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Re: Roundtripping Multiple Levels

Postby reeffish1073 » May 2, 2011 2:16 pm

Stan

Using Compass and Illiustrator, i just import the line plot and draw, providing you do not have many if any loop closures. This is where i start roundtriping things when there are alot of loop closures. I then import the sketches and when i have multi layered passages, i grey out the underlieing passages with varrying shades of grey. I dont go too dark as to oppose the artwork/detail on the uppemost level. I then do breakouts of the lower levels and offset them from the main passage. I go this route so i can show the detail/artwork on the lower levels as well. The caves i am currently working on have large passage with lots of detail in the sketches, so i dont want to loose that!!! This is why i take that approach!
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Re: Roundtripping Multiple Levels

Postby HKalnitz » May 8, 2011 10:16 am

Thanks for the replies

Stan - that was straightforward , I should have figured it out my self. Thanks for the nudge in the right direction.
I do have one additional question - the base map data I will be working against will be updated on regular basis. Therefore the separate layers drawn maps will have to change with them.
When I roundtrip the layer separated out into its own segment in walls will it respond to changes in the wide base map data (which may adjust relative location differences between layers)? In other words does all the locational data from the entire base map data come along for the ride, even though I am only exporting a SVG of a layer at a time?

I assume so, as the layer segment I am exporting seems to stay relative to the main entrance when I view a draft in walls, even if all the passages between the main entrance and my section are not shown. I just wanted to check and see if anyone had a specific answer to this question

Thanks again
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Re: Roundtripping Multiple Levels

Postby Stan Allison » May 15, 2011 2:03 pm

Howard,

Yes, when you export a Segment of a Walls lineplot it will still be adjusted by the entire dataset even if some of the segments aren't shown in your export. Are you going to the NSS Convention? I will be there and it would be fun to see the cartography project you are working on. I'll try to bring some of the roundtripping projects that I am working on as well. It is always interesting to see how others are utilizing roundtripping since there aren't very many people doing this.

Good luck with your cartography,

Stan
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Re: Roundtripping Multiple Levels

Postby rchrds » Jun 13, 2011 1:45 am

Damn, we finally have a get together about round-tripping, at the convention I wont make it to! I do the same thing as the first response- Each layer is treated as a separate segment, and then all is tied back in using illustrator.

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Re: Roundtripping Multiple Levels

Postby Caveman18 » Jun 13, 2011 5:22 pm

Next question - how do we round-trip 154 miles of cave passages on eight separate illustrator layers, each with sub-layers, on 70 quadrangles??? I'm thinking about writing my own illustrator plugin to address this issue, because it's driving me nuts every time someone closes another loop!!! Stan and everyone, I will also be at convention and would love to pick brains further on this.

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Re: Roundtripping Multiple Levels

Postby rchrds » Jun 14, 2011 1:59 am

Would love to hear the answer to this- I have 36 miles that I am wrestling with this very same question. Sigh.

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Re: Roundtripping Multiple Levels

Postby Extremeophile » Jun 14, 2011 11:13 am

Caveman18 wrote:Next question - how do we round-trip 154 miles of cave passages on eight separate illustrator layers, each with sub-layers, on 70 quadrangles??? I'm thinking about writing my own illustrator plugin to address this issue, because it's driving me nuts every time someone closes another loop!!! Stan and everyone, I will also be at convention and would love to pick brains further on this.

Dan


And we close as many loops as we can when you're not with us... it gives us a good laugh when we think of the problems it causes you :big grin:
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Re: Roundtripping Multiple Levels

Postby Caveman18 » Jun 14, 2011 12:18 pm

Gee.... thanks Derek.
That's ok, though, we've got to get this issue figured out one way or another. You may close as many loops as you want, and I won't say a word... I promise.
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Re: Roundtripping Multiple Levels

Postby Extremeophile » Jun 14, 2011 2:32 pm

I'd like to be part of the discussion at Convention, but I'll be doing more learning than teaching. The Jewel map seems like a particularly difficult challenge, and maybe an example where the most obvious or efficient way for you to organize the drawing in Illustrator might not be compatible with the roundtripping process. I've been using Compass rather than Walls for roundtripping, but so far this has been with simple caves (at least when compared to Dry, Jewel or Blue Spring). I would think that for Jewel it might make things easier to split the cave into "sections"... this being different than the grid based quadrangles. The sections would be naturally divided areas that have maybe just one connecting passage crossing the section boundary, and no loops crossing these boundaries. You could then work on each section - correcting blunders, closing loops, etc - and then easily stitch the sections back together to make your master map.
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Re: Roundtripping Multiple Levels

Postby HKalnitz » Jun 14, 2011 9:16 pm

Well, somebody ought to get right on that and get that Survey and Cartography session Chair to do something about this....
Oh Wait....

How about this - we can go from about 11am to 1pm in the Survey and Cartography Sessions as an informal session - It is too late to get it into the schedule, but I can get it published in the daily newspaper and publicize it here. We only need to get done for the section meeting at lunch.

It DOES however interfere with the morning geology session. We did try to move it out from under geo, but had no luck. So please let me know if this will be an issue for anyone who wants to attend. If it is too much of a burden, then possibly tuesday afternoon, or Friday. I prefer monday, because I have the room and the equipment ready, but this should be fun, so I am willing to put it together on a different day.

What say?
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Re: Roundtripping Multiple Levels

Postby HKalnitz » Aug 6, 2011 9:27 am

Hi folks
We had a great and active discussion of roundtripping multiple layers at the Survey and Cartography sessions in Colorado.

We had about 20-25 people involved, and a fair amount of discussion on both the issues of roundtripping, and possible solutions. I completed and published the notes from that discussion. However I only have emails from about 5 of the people involved in those discussions. If you would like a copy of the notes, and be a part of any ongoing discussion, please email me directly, and I will send you a copy and add you to the email group for further notes.
hkalnitz@NOSPAMfuse.net (<---something needs to be removed - wonder what it is...)

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