Privacy

[Bill Putnam]

I would like to suggest that you consider adopting a policy prohibiting anonymous posting on Cavechat.

It’s one thing if people want to read and browse anonymously, but if they want to post they should have to identify themselves. Many forums run by similar organizations have such a policy and do not allow anonymous posts, precisely because they facilitate and sometimes even encourage abuse.

Whatever I have done the forum, and however wrong or bad it was, at least everyone could see who the culprit was and hold me accountable. Anonymity enables and encourages bad behavior. When people know who you are, you are more likely to think twice before doing something questionable. That is why we have “anti-mask” laws, and penalties for using fake IDs or giving false information to authorities. Allowing anonymous posting on Cavechat is bad for the forum and bad for the NSS.

You have my permission to forward or reproduce this message, as long as the content remains complete and unaltered.

Bill Putnam
NSS 21117 RL/FE

[NZcaver]

Interesting thought.

While many forums may require users to properly identify themselves, many others do not. It doesn't always result in anarchy. This NSS forum has operated for three and a half years with participation by many anonymous posters. In my opinion, we've experienced relatively few issues relating to anonymous posters thus far. (This does not include deleting and banning blatant spammers - that happens every few days on average.)

Personally I disagree that "allowing anonymous posting on Cavechat is bad for the forum and bad for the NSS." However I suspect others here might agree with you.

I propose we conduct a forum poll and invite our members to vote and share their opinions on this. I'm not sure, but I think you can edit your original post and add a poll if you wish. Or I can start a new topic and poll. If you choose to do one, we should also determine what constitutes anonymous and what doesn't. Would you consider just a first name and/or NSS number (if applicable) to be anonymous or not?

[Bill Putnam]

While many forums may require users to properly identify themselves, many others do not. It doesn't always result in anarchy.

Perhaps not, but I would contend that it definitely and substantially increases the likelihood of abuse and eventual degradation and devolution into anarchy. Freedom without responsibility and accountability is the very definition of anarchy.

[W]e should also determine what constitutes anonymous and what doesn't. Would you consider just a first name and/or NSS number (if applicable) to be anonymous or not?

No, I would not. First and last name, and NSS number (if a member) would seem to me to be the minimum level of identification. We already require a valid email address for activation, but it is not visible. I don't mind that, because you can send someone a private message. I have no objection to people using nicknames, but their full name (and NSS number, if they have one) should be visible on their profile.

People who refuse to identify themselves are not serious, and should not be taken seriously, or afforded the same privileges as those who stand behind their words.

What could anyone possibly be afraid of here? The forum is aggressively moderated, both by actual moderators and by self-appointed guardians and nitpickers. The NSS leadership is so impotent that they are no threat to anyone. Are we afraid the hodags will get us?

p.s. The hodags of the Revolutionary Hodag Party have asked me to convey that they are no threat to anyone, except people who leave their cave packs unattended and just begging to be rocked, and that they agree 100% with the opinions expressed above. Hodags are all about responsibility and accountability.

[caverdan]

Bill....think of it this way.....cavechat is basically like any other grotto or IO in the NSS. There are those that like this form of entertainment ......and there are those that don't. Most NSS members don't.....but like most grotto's we draw a crowd from time to time. I'd say there are probably 300 to 400 people kind of following your threads and 50 or so are following closely. The majority of those that do take the time to chime in ......are part of the voting few within the NSS....so your playing to a good crowd.

A couple of things that you might not realize about discussion boards is ........people at times turn out much different in person than there persona on here. ( anyone remember Oldmustangjunkie) Long posts get the skim and scroll treatment in a hurry. Best to post one or two questions or thoughts at a time if you want to get a point across. As far as being anonymous on the INTERNET??? That's all part of the fun. It's how these discussion boards roil.....don't you like a good mystery?

Check out the members button at the top ....next to the log out button. (since you like looking at numbers )

If you go to the top of that page... you can sort the list by clicking on the heading. If you click it twice it will sort it the other way. See how many people post and how many people don't use their real name. Try sorting it by number of posts to see who the players are. You would almost have to restart the discussion board to get everyone to comply.

Whats even funnier is I've actually met a lot of these people who hang out here at the few conventions I've attended....and the recent BOG meeing here in town. Ths NSS is a very small world.....yes indeed. Someone was talking about boating...weren't they. How about riding a white water raft to the 2011 convention Howdy Party!!

[Bill Putnam]

One of the reasons I have not posted much or participated much in the forum until now is that I do not particularly enjoy arguing with anonymous hair-splitting nitpickers ad nauseum. As recent events have amply demonstrated, I tend to get pissed off and carried away.

Usually, I have better and more enjoyable things to do. But I believe that one of the responsibilities of an NSS director or officer is to participate in this forum, whatever its faults and limitations may be. It's one of our official communications channels.

Since I am a candidate, I have to come out here on the stage in order to live up to the standards I ask others to live up to. That's walking the walk. That means I may be subjected to name calling and accusations of hypocrisy from named and anonymous posters. I don't like that, but I knew the job was dangerous when I took it. I have a thick skin and enough self confidence to handle that.

I do notice, however, that I do not have a lot of company from the other candidates, or for that matter the incumbent directors and officers out here. It's a lonely walk. And of course, there are plenty of people who are not walking with me but who are only too happy to criticize the way I walk. No one is calling them hypocrites, though. Where are the complaints about that? Such is life.

So here I am, warts and all. Love me or hate me - I'm all in. I am what I am. But I do not have much respect for the opinions of people who are afraid to identify themselves and stand behind their words. IMHO, They are lightweights, and not to be taken seriously. Serious people stand behind their words.

People who launch anonymous attacks in a public forum are like masked Klan riders burning crosses. I have no respect for them, and no use for them.

Bill

[barcelonacvr]

I think with most younger savvy users and maybe some old goats like me, will always try to keep anonymous on the net to stay out of the google bot reach and for some,prospective employers etc

If the forum members are respectful for the most part the forum should run fine.This forum is a dream regarding behavior compared to many-without heavy moderation.I feel actual names etc would make things far too formal and counter productive. The block features work well IMHO and the odd true disruptive troll gets removed fairly fast by the reasonable moderation.

IMHO some of the controversial posts bring out the best contact and I have seen other boars with that requirement, fizzle down to nothing.I think a lot of people take the net a lot less seriously than a formal meeting etc.People have to be formal at work,why make that for their hobby discussions as well? Sometimes we all may hear posts and replies we don;t want to on the net/as long as it is not libelous or totally acidic..take it as it comes -I say

[graveleye]

just my $.02...

I joined this forum 3 years and a month ago. I knew exactly one caver and I hadn't even talked to him in over a decade. I had a vague idea about the nature of cavers, but didn't know what to expect. I wanted to meet people and make friends, but since it was the great unknown to me, I didn't want to reveal myself completely and at once to a bunch of strangers. I knew I was friendly enough to make friends, but one can never be sure of the atmosphere of an internet discussion forum. (I am a champion of flamewars btw, but you wouldn't know it on this forum)

Incidentally, I felt a little stalked once from here because of something I said that someone didn't like. Even though I was a moderator at that time, I handled it on my own, and have had no problems since. To this day, however, I do not announce when and where I am going on cave trips here . Not everyone who visits cavechat is a member, and many probably have no interest in caving at all. But my posts can be read by anyone with an internet connection, and information about my life could be used to harm me. Double edged sword is that I don't know who is really posting what. My anonymity, I felt, was my protection. Graveleye is a force to be reckoned with

I keed.

Anyway, it's pretty obvious when someone is using their anonymity to do wrong, or hide themselves from something they would not do publicly. I've seen it happen again and again in other forums, and here as well. But we really haven't had a problem with it here until the past couple of days when people chose to abuse their ability to cloak themselves. I've only recently put my real name in my profile because I feel like I have enough true friends to watch my back. I'm not up to no good, but I know that my friends and I are on the lookout for those that seek to deceive. I can name many, many members here that I consider trustworthy enough to meet somewhere and go caving, and I don't even know their real names. I've gone caving with folks who finally put it together and said "Oh YOU'RE GRAVELEYE!! heeeeyyyy" LOL Someone might call that naive, but I feel a sensible person can have a realistic grasp on sincerity and authenticity with who they are communicating with.

There are a lot of other points that could be argued, but I'm for keeping it as it is now. If you want the option of being anonymous, then you should be able to do that, so long as you are not maliciously deceiving the community. If someone is disguising themselves in order to do harm or cause mayhem, then obviously that should be discouraged.

[Bill Putnam]

Kevin,

There is no true anonymity on the Internet. I could trace your info as easily as I did that other person's. Anyone who takes the initiative to Google the right search terms can do it. All this talk about privacy is a red herring. There is no privacy, and you have no right to privacy here or anywhere on the Net. It's an illusion that gives a false sense of security. It has little or no real up-side, and a big down-side. The longer you are involved with the Net, the more you will come to realize that.

Like the kid in The Matrix said, "There is no spoon."

Bill

[Bill Putnam]

Personally I disagree that "allowing anonymous posting on Cavechat is bad for the forum and bad for the NSS." However I suspect others here might agree with you.

OK. So you disagree. Why?

Make your case.

Opinions are like you-know-what. Everybody has one. But some people have thoughtful reasons behind theirs, and others do not. Some people have only emotions behind their opinions. I am not inclined to give as much credibility to the latter as to the former.

I know you to be a thoughtful person. Share your thoughts, as I shared mine.

[Bill Putnam]

I think with most younger savvy users and maybe some old goats like me, will always try to keep anonymous on the net to stay out of the google bot reach and for some,prospective employers etc

Right.

They want to hide their identities in order to have the "freedom" to do something that they would not want an employer to know about. That sounds like someone I want to hire - not!

Mama always said, "Don't ever say or do anything that you wouldn't want to see on the front page of the paper in the morning." I have not always been able to live up to that maxim, but at least I am accountable to it.

I have no respect for anonymous cowards. If that makes me a short-haired narrow-minded lousy-hung son-of-a-bitch, so be it. I will wear that hat with pride.

Bill Putnam
NSS 21117 RL/FE
SHNMLHSOB and Proud of It,
And a Hell of an Engineer.

[caverdan]

Bill....you've hit on the very reason why a lot of people become frustrated and/or will never post on discussion boards. Spineless bastards lurk in every corner. No one wants to identify themselves to the rest of the world.

Personally.....I'm drawn to these DB's for the entertainment factor along with a quest for knowledge and a way to learn how to type on a keyboard. Thats something I never could get the hang of in school. Entertainment is the biggie though. I have a feeling that's why others hang out here too. These past few weeks have been priceless.........reality at it's best.

They want to hide their identities in order to have the "freedom" to do something that they would not want an employer to know about.

The exact reason I do not have an internet connection at my business. I make my employees leave their cell phones in their car or by the time clock as I hate the whole text message.... receiving calls on my time thing. If they don't like it.......they can find someone else to dig holes for. Text messaging should be outlawed and done away with. I have no respect for anyone who does it while driving down the road........I honk...cut them off.....flip them off....you name it. Spineless bastards....everyone of them.

Personal attacks......best thing is to skip and scroll....or hit the report post button and let the mods deal with it. That's why they get paid the big bucks.

[graveleye]

...let the mods deal with it. That's why they get paid the big bucks.

I should have received combat pay for yesterday. You guys are killing me!

Call me a coward if you want but I started out here anonymously. I didn't abuse it, nor was my intention to deceive. Truth be known, I was scared of you people.

In a lot of ways, I still am.

[Scott McCrea]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[shibumi]

I am NOT in favor of requiring identification beyond what already exists. Once something is on the NET, it is there forever.
Good or bad. In 25 years of participating in online discussions, I have matured both in thought and style. And yet, I have seen serious repercussions (like discrimination to the point of my exwife being threatened with her job for things *I*
wrote which had nothing to do with her or her job) for things I wrote years previous. To that end, for the last
decade I have obscured my identity against casual search. Anyone who reads anything I write will eventually know who
I am in any given identity I choose to use, but that's the point, they'll have to actually read what I write. And it will be
difficult to connect what I write here with, say, on AR15.com

It is a sad state of affairs, but I do NOT post my opinions or ideas on a variety of topics because of those repercussions
which extend beyond the ideas themselves. We live in a world where people will hate you, not just your ideas, but you
yourself, because they disagree with you. Free speech is a lofty goal, but it breaks down in practice, even at a
governmental level.

As long as the moderators do their jobs of policing trolling and spurious ad hominem attacks, I don't have a problem with
this forum in its present configuration.

Anmar-- who has been a moderator of several large forums and wrestled with these issues a lot.

[Scott McCrea]

Previously
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=272