New NSS Book: Blue Spring Cave

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Re: NEW NSS PUBLICATION: Blue Spring Cave.

Postby Larry E. Matthews » Feb 4, 2010 11:44 am

Wow, I thought it was just me who couldn't find the ad. I thought I was doing something wrong.

By the way, that BEAUTIFUL Front Cover was taken by cave photographer Bob Biddix and the person in the photo is cave model Erica Sughrue.

There are probably over 200 photos in this book. I'll have to sit down and count them. But, it is lavishly illustrated, as the ad says.

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Re: NEW NSS PUBLICATION ANNOUCEMENT!!!

Postby Larry E. Matthews » Feb 4, 2010 7:13 pm

Well, my curiosity got the best of me and I pulled out the Proof Copy of "Blue Spring Cave" to see how many photos are actually in the book. If you count the Front Cover and the Back Cover, there are 249 photographs. 218 of the photographs are Black and White and 31 are in Color.

The photographs were taken by sixteen (16) different photographers:

1. Tom Barr
2. Bob Biddix
3. Jon Bojar
4. Dave Bunnell/Underearth Images
5. Tamra Caplenor
6. Trey Caplenor
7. Lonnie Carr
8. Chattanooga/Hamilton County Cave Rescue Organization
9. Alan Cressler
10. Bert Denton
11. Anne Elmore
12. Cheryl Pratt
13. Elliot Stahl
14. Ken Storey
15. Wark Wenner
16. Mike Yocum


Many thanks to all these fine photographers for contributing photographs to the "Blue Spring Cave book.

And, for the true statistics lover, there are also 14 maps in the book.

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Re: NEW NSS PUBLICATION ANNOUNCEMENT!!!

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Feb 10, 2010 12:18 pm

boreholio wrote:It's at the printer so "someday" will likely be someday soon, probably in the next few weeks.

So, absolutely not in time for Valentine's Day, in which case the initial post was not a new publication announcement, it was indeed a random advertisement compelling us to click through for the "new publication announcement" that didn't exist (and still doesn't).


driggs wrote:Although it's natural entrance has been known since prehistoric times...

This is quoted from the copy on the site, so it's a reflection on our organization and not Dave Riggs. Dear NSS bookstore website copy writers and/or editors: please change this instance of "it's" to "its." The former is a contraction of "it is" while the latter indicates a possessive.

Edit: the "preview" description shown for searches also alternately calls the cave Blue Spring Cave and Blue Springs Cave...
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Re: NEW NSS PUBLICATION ANNOUCEMENT!!!

Postby Larry E. Matthews » Feb 10, 2010 7:35 pm

The correct name for the cave is Blue Spring Cave. And, that is the name shown on the cover of the book.

However, rather than nit-pick the Office Staff to death, I suggest that some people try to look at the positive side.

This book has been donated by me and Bill Walter to the NSS. All proceeds go to the NSS. This helps keep your dues down. The NSS Bookstore does a wonderful job of providing cave books both to it's members and others who shop there. Not only is this a service to the caving community, but the income from the Bookstore also keeps your dues down.

There really aren't that many of "US", so we need the income to help finance our organization. Compared to other organizations, such as the Audubon Society, the Nature Conservancy, etc., we are tiny. We don't have much of a dues base. So, support our NSS Bookstore and the NSS Office. They do a wonderful job and that helps the entire membership.

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Re: NEW NSS PUBLICATION ANNOUCEMENT!!!

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Feb 10, 2010 7:46 pm

Larry E. Matthews wrote:This book has been donated by me and Bill Walter to the NSS. All proceeds go to the NSS.

What you mean is that you haven't received any money/royalties for your authorship, I think. This is noble, and I commend you. However, it's not the same as a donation, unless you're actually saying that you and Bill are footing the $5,500 cost for the production run.


Larry E. Matthews wrote: The NSS Bookstore does a wonderful job of providing cave books both to it's members and others who shop there.

This sentence contains the same its/it's error I've pointed out in the paragraph above, for which I (presumably) am being accused of "nitpicking the office staff to death." Is this intentional, or do we simply not care about how the organization is presented publicly?
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Re: NEW NSS PUBLICATION ANNOUCEMENT!!!

Postby Larry E. Matthews » Feb 10, 2010 8:03 pm

Well, the book "Blue Spring Cave" is intellectual property and it is copyright. So, the NSS does not own the book and by us allowing them to print the book and retain all the profits, it is a donation.

When the first printing is sold out, and it will sell out rather quickly, the NSS will make several thousand dollars in profits. I consider that a substantial donation to the NSS. And, the book will continue to sell for years to come and the NSS will receive addtional thousands of dollars in income from the book.

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Re: NEW NSS PUBLICATION ANNOUCEMENT!!!

Postby wyandottecaver » Feb 10, 2010 8:47 pm

well I am on the most wanted list of the grammar police myself.

We are a tiny organization...partly because we are a niche group. But look at BCI and even ACCA. I am increasingly convinced we are tiny and getting smaller because anyone who examines our internal workings very closely is reminded of the adage of watching sausage or the law being made....its not very attractive and makes you wonder about the wholesomeness of the finished product. The Nature Conservancy has weathered their scandals...by becoming more transparent and responsive. The NSS weathers them by making sure the president stays quiet, taking email votes on the BOG, jurymandering the vote on one of the most controversial issues in the last 30 years, and reminding us to get a NSS VISA!

Members have left. They are still leaving. Given the increasing frustration over their handling of WNS as a Society more will likely leave.

Yes, the authors contributions will benefit the NSS coffers. But that money is unrestricted. it could be used to offset operating costs or it could be used to buy heated toilet seats in a new building..... since it is the authors contribution its theirs to make. But its impact on keeping dues down is uncertain.

More to the point, having received this generous contribution of intellectual property, is the NSS making the best use of it? Are their decisions appropriate?

Maybe. Storage space is a big issue at Huntsville. (its prolly gonna cost us 2 million..so much for low dues) Also, The NSS has long experiance with producing "collectible" books. (some speleodigest prices now top $300) i.e. you have limted initial runs (often too small for effecient bulk printing) to squeeze the high rollers. Once the 1st editions, hardbacks, and novelty is sold at a premium, a bulk print order for the cheapskate masses can be made.

would bulk printing 2000 books be cheaper? probably. It would also take a lot more space. Would 2000 first editions gain value in the collector (and reprint) market as well as a few hundred? probably not.
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Re: NEW NSS PUBLICATION ANNOUCEMENT!!!

Postby Teresa » Feb 10, 2010 9:27 pm

wyandottecaver wrote:More to the point, having received this generous contribution of intellectual property, is the NSS making the best use of it? Are their decisions appropriate?

Maybe. Storage space is a big issue at Huntsville. (its prolly gonna cost us 2 million..so much for low dues) Also, The NSS has long experience with producing "collectible" books. (some speleodigest prices now top $300) i.e. you have limited initial runs (often too small for efficient bulk printing) to squeeze the high rollers. Once the 1st editions, hardbacks, and novelty is sold at a premium, a bulk print order for the cheapskate masses can be made.

would bulk printing 2000 books be cheaper? probably. It would also take a lot more space. Would 2000 first editions gain value in the collector (and reprint) market as well as a few hundred? probably not.


Larry is well-qualified to speak for himself, but it strikes that this is the same deal as the NSS makes with most of its authors-- author retains ownership of the work, but gives the NSS the right to print and profit from the work. It's called a non-exclusive license and is pretty common in the non-profit world. Also, limited initial press run isn't really to squeeze the high rollers. It's to cut your losses if the book is a dud as a seller. I have every confidence that Larry's book is good...however from a purely profit-driven viewpoint, (a book about an Indiana cave vs a scandal-riddled Hollywood or political tell-all) there are a limited number of people who have ever heard of Blue Springs Cave, and an even more limited number of people who would buy a book (or even read one these days.) So, printing 2000 copies which may never sell out *isn't* cheaper than printing 200 which do. You gotta get the work out there, and generate some buzz, which is why print on demand hasn't taken over as the sole publishing method. But you don't want to get stuck with a small house of ink, paper and glue. Not every first edition is worth anything more than cover price. Things like the Speleodigests have a limited audience-- few were printed, and it's only later when most of these books become valuable-- when they've become rare and hard to get. Other than signed editions, most things become rare and valuable after the fact. Just my .02.
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Re: NEW NSS PUBLICATION ANNOUCEMENT!!!

Postby Larry E. Matthews » Feb 10, 2010 9:33 pm

The last post raised some good questions.

Twenty years ago, there would have been substantial savings in printing 2,000 copies of a book as opoposed to just a few hundred. i.e., the cost per book would have been much less. But, then there is the cost of storage.

Printing has changed drastically in recent years. Now with print-on-demand, small printings are affordable and storage is not as much of a problem, at least not for one book. But, of course, the NSS has many, many books in print so it does need a lot of storage space.

Nowdays, with everything being digital, it is a whole new world in the printing business. It does allow a small club, like the NSS, to offer a wide variety of publications.

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Re: NEW NSS PUBLICATION ANNOUCEMENT!!!

Postby Cheryl Jones » Feb 11, 2010 12:40 pm

author retains ownership of the work, but gives the NSS the right to print and profit from the work. It's called a non-exclusive license and is pretty common in the non-profit world.

I don't think we know what rights the NSS has for this book. Last I heard the copyright agreement has not been signed, as per the NSS Copyright Policy, even though the books are at the printer.

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Re: NEW NSS PUBLICATION ANNOUCEMENT!!!

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Feb 11, 2010 12:46 pm

Larry E. Matthews wrote:Printing has changed drastically in recent years. Now with print-on-demand, small printings are affordable and storage is not as much of a problem

This doesn't really address the question I posed in the other thread (in the NSS Topics forum), nor am I entirely sure why this conversation has migrated over here. Why order a run of 350, or 3500, or 35, if you're utilizing a print-on-demand workflow? The entire value of print-on-demand is that they can be printed singly &and quickly as orders are received. The trade-off for this benefit, which prevents accidentally ordering too many books (thus having to store them long-term or simply eat the cost) as well as the initial outlay of funds, is that the per-book printing cost is higher.

Posted here (http://forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=9709), and I quote:
"The NSS will publish an initial 350 copies of Larry Matthews 346-page book titled Blue Springs, using a print-on-demand method."

If we're ordering 350, why do we need to use a print-on-demand method? Would it not just be less expensive to either (a) just order 350 books or (b) order them print-on-demand style on an as-needed basis without designating x number of books as the initial print run? Is there a significant piece of information missing from this announcement? Do we have 350 pre-orders?

It sounds like we're printing these in the least efficient way possible: setting up an on-demand production workflow at a high cost per book, then ordering a large quantity at this cost without utilizing the benefits that cost would theoretically provide.



edit: but, of course, who am i to say, since I'm just a lowly NSS member and not on any of the boards/committees who have apparently discussed this "ad nauseum" amongst themselves. And I'd like to stress, again, that I mean Larry no disrespect; I'm sure it's a very interesting book, I have a ton of respect for anyone who can write 346 pages capably on any subject, and I always enjoy reading these sorts of things (though I rarely have $30 to spend on caving books).
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Re: NEW NSS PUBLICATION ANNOUCEMENT!!!

Postby Scott McCrea » Feb 11, 2010 1:03 pm

If only there were graphic designers, printers, publishers, print brokers and other experts in the NSS that could be consulted...

Of course, maybe this was already done.

If only there were someone in-the-know around here to answer these questions...

Of course, maybe the answer is buried deep in the minutes of the BOG meeting or some report on the NSS website.

If only there was a way to easily make info available to members—something like a board where people could discuss stuff...

:doh:

Jeff, be careful. It sounds like you are volunteering to help with future print projects. :tonguecheek:
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Re: NEW NSS PUBLICATION ANNOUCEMENT!!!

Postby Larry E. Matthews » Feb 11, 2010 1:03 pm

Jeff, I'm sure you are trying to be helpful. But let me explain how "Print on Demand" works.

You still get a discount for ordering more books, so you don't get one(1) book for the same price as 300 books. The price is incremental. Something like 1-100, 101-200, 201-400, 401-800, etc., etc. Obviously, this varies from printer to printer, but I have had books printed, so I have gone through all of this before.

And, of course, they have to be boxed and shipped. So, what you do with "Print on Demand" is order as many as you think you can sell in a reasonalbe amount of time. Also, books have to be "on hand" at the NSS Office in order to fill orders. You don't wait for an order, then order one (1) copy from "Print on Demand", wait for it to be printed, shipped, and delivered to fill an order. Nobody would order from you if the wait was that long.

Due to your interest in this, I nominate you to volunteer to work with the BOG and the NSS Bookstore to maximise profit and minimise storage for the NSS. Sounds like something you would enjoy, and the NSS always needs volunteers.

Can we move on?

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Re: NEW NSS PUBLICATION ANNOUCEMENT!!!

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Feb 11, 2010 1:21 pm

Larry E. Matthews wrote:let me explain how "Print on Demand" works

You're not describing Print On Demand. You're describing the traditional printing process, where you order a specific number of copies of a given book, and the more you order the more economical it is. This concurs with the first part of the statement ("350 copies") but not the second part ("using a Print On Demand method").


Since I can't explain it any better than wikipedia does, I'll paste the first paragraph from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Print_on_demand:
wikipedia wrote:Print on demand (POD), sometimes called publish on demand, is a printing technology and business process in which new copies of a book (or other document) are not printed until an order has been received. "Print on Demand" developed only after digital printing began, because it was not economical to print single copies using traditional printing technology such as letterpress and offset printing.

This is not what you are describing and I suspect it is not actually how we (the NSS) are printing the book, which makes it absurd for there to be a secret BOG "email vote" agreeing that we are doing something which we are, presumably, not doing.
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Re: NEW NSS PUBLICATION ANNOUCEMENT!!!

Postby Larry E. Matthews » Feb 11, 2010 3:42 pm

OK. I admit defeat. I give up !!!!!!!

I am not an expert on printing. I am not an expert on selling. I am not an Office Manager.

I leave all that to someone else. Maybe they can explain it to you (hopefully) off-line.

Somehow, this was just supposed to be an announcement that a new book would be available shortly. How did we get off on such a wild tangent?




Now, back on the subject, the Editor expects the softbound version of the book to ship in about one week and the hardbound to ship in about two weeks. Enjoy !!!

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