May NEWS Foul?

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May NEWS Foul?

Postby Phil Winkler » May 5, 2009 6:27 pm

I just heard Dave Foster got 4 pages in the May News promoting the Horse Cave Office bid.

Who on earth authorized that? Someone doesn't seem to be playing fair.

Does Huntsville and Indiana get equal space and time?

Who is coordinating this? Dave?
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Re: May NEWS Foul?

Postby Mudduck » May 5, 2009 9:09 pm

Phil Winkler wrote:4 pages in the May News promoting the Horse Cave Office bid


Glad I was'nt the only one who took note!!
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Re: May NEWS Foul?

Postby Dave Bunnell » May 5, 2009 9:10 pm

Hmm, I hadn't even thought about it being a contest for equal time. Much of the article is actually about the history of Horse Cave and the ACCA, something a lot of us probably didn't know much about, and I thought a quite interesting article in its own right.
But I'm not trying to play favorites here concerning the office decision (I think it ought to stay in Huntsville, myself). So I would certainly give News editorial space over to articles about the other locales. I don't think they need to be four pages necessarily to be "equal time," since as I say, much of the May article is about historical aspects, with a number of photos, and not directly about the office space.

Gordon Birkhimer has a column coming up in the June issue (now in press) inviting members to get informed on the pros and cons of each locale and provide their input to the BOG. So it would be entirely appropriate to have some write-ups regarding the other locales. I believe the decision is supposed to be made in November, so that leaves the July, August, September, and October issues for getting some information out to the membership via articles from those who've put together the other proposals.

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Re: May NEWS Foul?

Postby caverdan » May 6, 2009 8:10 am

At the end of the Colorado Springs BOG meeting....Bill Franz stood up and suggested to the BOG .....that all the office choices be highlighted in upcoming issues of the NSS News. I thought they all agreed it would be a good idea. Looks like Dave didn't get THAT memo. :shrug: I was surprised how many local cavers around here had no idea this was even being discussed. :argue:
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Re: May NEWS Foul?

Postby Bill Putnam » May 6, 2009 10:04 am

I have not seen the issue yet, but I suppose it does not include reference to the fact that the various proposals are available on the NSS web site for members to review, since they were only recently posted. Perhaps Dave can slip a notice to that effect into the June issue?
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Re: May NEWS Foul?

Postby roger_haley » May 6, 2009 10:20 am

It would have been proper for someone from the NSS to contact us here in Huntsville to give us a heads up that this was in the works so that we could have published at the same time to be fair. Also with over 240 cave in the city limits there is a lot to say about HSV too! Again the NSS leaves us out of the loop!
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Re: May NEWS Foul?

Postby Wm Shrewsbury » May 6, 2009 10:36 am

I have not seen this article yet. Perhaps Dave could send me a PDF of the relevant pages.

I would suggest that both the AL and IN crews also prepare articles for your proposals, mentioning, of course, the NSS web-site link near the end. While not having seen the article but only going on what I have read here I should think that a page or two synopsis of the proposals would probably be "fair". Can someone who has a copy please scan it and see proximately how much is about Horse Cave versus a proposal to move the headquarters there?

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Re: May NEWS Foul?

Postby wyandottecaver » May 6, 2009 4:39 pm

ummm

who wrote the article? (I haven't seen mine) Unless it was written by Dave Bunnel, I'd say whether or not any of the other proposals got space would be related to whether they actually submitted anything? They certainly shouldn't expect people, especially dave, to babysit them and send them custom messages encouraging them to publish.
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Re: May NEWS Foul?

Postby Wm Shrewsbury » May 6, 2009 5:16 pm

Having now seen the article by David Foster from a scanned copy, I'd have to say that there is only a little in there about the office proposal. I believe the article was well written and that it was nice to see the progression of events that led to the ACCA and Horse Cave being where they are today. I understand that there will be an article by Gordon in an upcoming issue calling for input on the proposals, and it will be an ongoing discussion all the way up to the November meeting I would imagine. Even if we decide on a location that is not KY (such as the AL or IN) I believe that a door has opened wider for the NSS and ACCA to work together.

If AL and IN choose to send in articles about their proposals, I hope that they will write informative articles about the "how we got to where we are today" nature of their areas like this article did. Regardless of the office proposal portion, articles of this nature are an excellent way to let the newer cavers (those under 20+ years with us) catch up with us older members, and a way for us older cavers to update what we once knew and how it is now.

I look forward to seeing my copy and hopefully reading about the other two areas.

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Re: May NEWS Foul?

Postby caverdoc » May 8, 2009 9:15 pm

Dave could have used one of those 4 pages to include my review of the latest "Alpine Karst" edition. It is basically a reprint of the first four issues from the 1970s of what many consider some of the best Montana caving articles in print. (sigh). I only turned it in back in December... :big grin:

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Re: May NEWS Foul?

Postby Dave Bunnell » May 9, 2009 12:26 am

caverdoc wrote:Dave could have used one of those 4 pages to include my review of the latest "Alpine Karst" edition. It is basically a reprint of the first four issues from the 1970s of what many consider some of the best Montana caving articles in print. (sigh). I only turned it in back in December... :big grin:

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Hey Jay:

This is certainly :off topic: but since you raise it, no, I haven't lost it, but there just hasn't been room. We had a convention issue, two very full conservation issues, a very full Montana issue, and lots of other book reviews to run. I tried to put it in the Montana issue, but your review takes up two full News pages. Congratulations, you have exceeded Danny Brass's record for longest single book review ever! I still have about six of Danny's reviews on hold because of the difficulty of fitting them in. I may have asked you to cut yours back, can't recall, but much of it is interesting enough that it would probably be hard to cut. Bill Mixon submitted a review as well, which was only a paragraph in length, but I'm planning to use yours instead. Perhaps in the July issue, just in time for the ICS, so that all those European alpine cavers will seek it out (assuming there will be copies for sale there... )
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Re: May NEWS Foul?

Postby caverdoc » May 9, 2009 8:33 am

Dave, you know I'm only yanking your chain! When I submitted it you told me it was two pages. I'm glad that folks are turning in good stuff for the NEWS to print.

Shifting back to topic...this has to be the most contentious year of my 35(?) in the NSS in terms of the politics. :yikes: I'm definitely making my director picks and getting the ballot in this weekend. Once things quiet down around Casa Kennedy I'll sit down and devote some quality time to the May issue of the NEWS.

I agreethat the other NSS Office venues deserve to present their platforms to the membership, and the NEWS is the best vehicle.

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Re: May NEWS Foul?

Postby Phil Winkler » May 9, 2009 11:08 am

I just read the full article and how anyone can say it has little to do with their proposal to move the office to Horse Cave simply isn't comprehending what they are reading.

In the middle of the article Dave Foster states:
So now at long last, we have arrived at the purpose of this article. I wish to acquaint you, the NSS member, with the ACCA and some sense of how our work in Horse Cave can benefit and enhance the NSS.


I also loved the quote from Bill Austin:
its [sic] easier to steal an organization than to create one."


The Horse Cave article and proposal can solve several problems at once:

    A new, spacious site for the NSS Office, Museum and Bookstore.
    Gain an executive director with cave experience.
    Gain a team with grant writing experience
    Gain another cave that used to be a sewer
    Eliminate problems with leadership

I'm telling you folks, I think the original writers of the proposal, Mark Joop, Lee Florea and Dave Foster really are on to something here.

What have we got to lose?
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Re: May NEWS Foul?

Postby cavepyranha » May 9, 2009 3:04 pm

:bananabat:

The Horse Cave article and proposal can solve several problems at once:

    A new, spacious site for the NSS Office, Museum and Bookstore.
    Gain an executive director with cave experience.
    Gain a team with grant writing experience
    Gain another cave that used to be a sewer
    Eliminate problems with leadership

I'm telling you folks, I think the original writers of the proposal, Mark Joop, Lee Florea and Dave Foster really are on to something here.

What have we got to lose?

:clap:
Well said! I agree, we have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

As to the "Gain another cave that used to be a sewer" I take your statement to mean a "trophy", symbolic to the success hundreds of NSS cavers. NSS cavers, volunteered to clean up, what was described to me by one of them, about one area was, "a six foot wall of {feces}". I have so much admiration and respect for the cavers who were dedicated and responsible for the success story of cleaning up Hidden River Cave. As a former resident of Horse Cave, I can assure you the people of Horse Cave are especially grateful.

Just with the idea of having the NSS headquarters move to Cave Country. I can see the wisdom in it, I can see great potential for the NSS to gain better recognition and grow in membership. I see the kind of wisdom and leadership Bill Austin had, continuing.

Even though the article nor the KY proposal makes no mention of placing an executive director I agree the NSS would benefit from having an executive director with 20 years of grant writing experience. ("Not merging the two organization... but sharing facilities" from Dave Fosters article) Maybe,the NSS could get grant money to help with conservation and education projects, etc., and not have to keep raising our dues. Imagine how high our dues would be constructing and maintaining a multi-million dollar complex! :doh:

Not to mention too, that the NSS office
would be in the center of the NSS Membership [not US]. The NSS headquarters would be within 30 miles of Mammoth Cave National Park, Cave Research Foundation, The National Cave Association and the American Cave Conservation Association and Western Kentucky University AND four excellent cave and karst educational groups, MCNP, ACCA, Hoffman Institute, and Mammoth Cave International Center for Science and Research. The possibilities for partnerships are endless. :bananabat:

During NSSCON, Alabama, I visited the current office. I don't mean this to offend anyone, but I was seriously in shock. I had envisioned a beautiful building in a nice part of town, but was met head on with this sad run down thing in the middle of a very scary looking neighborhood. I am sad to say the site left me with no feelings of pride, I was elated when the idea to move the NSS idea was pitched. I was disappointed that AL proposes to stay in same neighborhood (nice looking building).

As to the solving the problem of the museum complex- we can all agree! :woohoo:
From the AL proposal, "Given its unproven capability to generate successful museum exhibits, the NSS could be well advised to collaborate with a compatible organization with a demonstrated record of museum successes. The NSS collection of artifacts might well supplement the needs of an experienced exhibition design team. Fortunately, there are organizations with which the NSS could form a museum partnership. The American Cave Conservation Association is one, Diamond Caverns might be another, and still other opportunities probably exist. A cooperative museum might best be at the site of the existing museum and operated by the potential partner."

Imagine, having our complex located in Cave Country, with satellite offices in each of our regions. The current headquarters building could be renovated, and then given to SERA, to use for a meeting location and office space. :grin:

Dave's article was a great read, kudo's to Dave Bunnell for including it. I for one was glad to read about the history of Horse Cave and vision of Bill Austin.


I have a question for the BOG and Alex: Is there any way the link to the proposals could be moved to the opening NSS page or at least to the "Whats New" page?

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Re: May NEWS Foul?

Postby Bill Putnam » May 9, 2009 10:17 pm

Diane,

While I can agree with some of what you have said, it is difficult for me to reconcile your remarks here with some of your remarks elsewhere in this forum. Perhaps you might want tell the readers of your connections to the KY proposal, and its authors.

I did enjoy the article - it was well-written and informative, and made some excellent points. It was very clearly written with the goal of advancing the idea of relocating the office to Horse Cave and playing on the synergy expected from locating the NSS and the ACCA in the same small town, in a cave-rich area, near a cave-centic national park and a cave and karst research institute. Of course, Huntsville is also in a world-class cave-rich karst area, and has a major university, along with cave-related state and national parks nearby, as well as many other positive attributes. Perhaps the ACCA should consider relocating to Huntsville so that this synergy could be achieved?

By the way, have any of the authors of the KY proposal ever been to the NSS office? I mean, I understand that you did not like it, or its neighborhood, but I have been there many times and I would not entirely agree with your characterization. I live in Atlanta, by the way, which is about the same distance from Huntsville as Horse Cave and Knoxville. And I am wondering whether Dave, or Mark, or Randy, or Lee have ever actually been to the NSS office and seen it for themselves.

How about it, guys: have you ever been there?

The article suggests that Mark Joop originated the idea of moving the office to Horse Cave, and I know from Mark himself that he has never even seen the office, much less assessed its location or facilities, even though he has been to Huntsville more than once.

I suppose it probably doesn't make much difference, since most NSS members don't read Cavechat, and many do not even know about the proposals to move the office, and the board members apparently do not read Cavechat or care what the members think, but I really want to know. Have any of the authors of the KY proposal ever been to the NSS office, or are they just relying on second-hand information? I certainly hope at least one of them has taken the time to check it out in person. I mean, if I were going to propose relocating the ACCA out of Horse Cave, I would at least visit the facility first to see whether or not there really is any need for such a drastic action. Surely at least one of the authors did so before writing this proposal?

And for whatever it's worth, I have been to Horse Cave and the ACCA museum. It's very nice, and is indeed something to be proud of. I have no doubt that the NSS and the ACCA could both benefit from closer relations and from joint ventures. I am just not convinced that we need to relocate our office from Huntsville to Horse Cave in order to develop that relationship. Put the NSS museum there as a joint project - perhaps so. Establish a branch library there using the extra copies of publications (the library has three or more copies of many of its titles) - maybe that would be possible and useful as well. But move the entire office from a medium sized city with a large support network to a tiny town in central Kentucky that doesn't even have a local grotto? That might be great for the ACCA, but I'm not sure that would be a good thing for the NSS.

I'm looking forward to seeing a similar article in the News extolling the virtues of the Huntsville area and explaining the history of the NSS office and its needs. In my view, the office has not suffered from being in Huntsville - it has suffered from chronic neglect by the leaders of our Society. If they had been paying attention to it and taking care of it for the last 10 years we would not be in the present situation.

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