Since When does the NSS sell Creationist Literature?

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Re: Since When does the NSS sell Creationist Literature?

Postby Wm Shrewsbury » Dec 30, 2008 2:03 pm

Send Kelli an email at the NSS Office (bookstore@caves.org) and she'll be glad to take care of you.

Thanks, and Happy New Year!
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Re: Since When does the NSS sell Creationist Literature?

Postby CaverScott » Dec 30, 2008 2:07 pm

Wm Shrewsbury wrote:All,

The book mentioned here is no longer in the NSS inventory....


Warning - This is :off topic: As an aside, I would like to point out that in barely over 24 hours from the original posting, the NSS OVP was alerted of this dicussion, took action, and advised the membership of his decision. Regardless if you approve of or disagree with the decision, I wanted to point this out for those of you who frequent this forum and like to lament that "nothing ever happens" or the NSS Officers "do not listen."

Now back to our regularly scheduled and spirited discussions. :yikes:

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Re: Since When does the NSS sell Creationist Literature?

Postby Anonymous_Coward » Dec 30, 2008 2:16 pm

First of all, for once I actually sort of agree with John. The only way this book should be sold by the NSS is in a separate category than cave geology. Maybe if there was a separate category for religious works or alternate views or something. I do not have a problem with us selling this book, as long as it is not presented by the NSS as science. Creationism, by its own nature is NOT science. Look it up, there is a defintion for science. If science went around masquerading as religion, the faithful would be at least as upset.

Second of all, I am more concerned with how books like this threaten religion than how they threaten science. Science can never be threatened by non-science. However, books and viewpoints like this ARE driving people away from religion in droves. The Bible has very important lessons to teach, and how many days it took to make the universe is NOT one of them. There is that old saying "the devil is in the details." Creationists would do well to examine what (or who) is driving them to focus on this one detail, sometimes to the exclusion of all else.

Third of all, it is childish and absurd that this board has a policy of banning (deleting) any religious discussion. Why not be true moderaters and actually MODERATE discussions instead of relying on blanket rules. I hope at least a few people get to read my post before it gets edited/deleted/censored by the axe-wielders.
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Re: Since When does the NSS sell Creationist Literature?

Postby Anonymous_Coward » Dec 30, 2008 2:19 pm

Looks like I cross-posted with Wm and Scott. Thanks guys for removing the book. My original post had something about the NSS not being responsive to its members. I removed that when I saw how quick action was taken on this issue.

Thanks for restoring some of my faith in the managers of the NSS.
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Re: Since When does the NSS sell Creationist Literature?

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Dec 30, 2008 2:25 pm

jaa45993 wrote:The Bible has very important lessons to teach, and how many days it took to make the universe is NOT one of them.


Andy, very well stated and a point I'd overlooked entirely.
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Re: Since When does the NSS sell Creationist Literature?

Postby hewhocaves » Dec 30, 2008 2:43 pm

jaa45993 wrote:First of all, for once I actually sort of agree with John.


Truly a sign the end is near!

btw, for the record, I take no pleasure in having started this thread and creating the fuss in the first place.

More importantly, I really would like to see that "Caver's Prayer Book", perhaps with some appropriate verses from the Bible, etc... put together. It would make a great stocking stuffer for next Christmas. It could be designed in such a way that the proceeds go to a cave conservancy(s) of the author(s) choosing. If no one runs with the idea, I may give it a try.

heck, you could make a rite-in-the-rain version for in-cave!

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Re: Since When does the NSS sell Creationist Literature?

Postby Scott McCrea » Dec 30, 2008 2:45 pm

jaa45993 wrote:it is childish and absurd that this board has a policy of banning (deleting) any religious discussion. Why not be true moderaters and actually MODERATE discussions instead of relying on blanket rules. I hope at least a few people get to read my post before it gets edited/deleted/censored by the axe-wielders.

Hey David, looks like we have a volunteer to fill another moderator slot. :waving:

You think this is childish? I wish you could read the old Religion/Politics threads. It got bad and was distracting from the mission of Cavechat.
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Re: Since When does the NSS sell Creationist Literature?

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Dec 30, 2008 2:47 pm

Judging by Scott's avatar, he prefers wielding rocketry over wielding axes anyway
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Re: Since When does the NSS sell Creationist Literature?

Postby hewhocaves » Dec 30, 2008 2:50 pm

agreed. they were bad. i was one of the offenders :oops:

And its not an NSS thing. It happens on forums all over the world.
Politics and religion are best chatted about face to face over a campfire and some beer. Preferably at night when you're too tired to argue and the darkness is oppressing. Arguing at home in your jammies to a computer terminal makes most people too complacent in their own world view to entertain serious discussion.

The mods here have enough to do (maybe more than enough). Lets not make their life any harder.
Last edited by hewhocaves on Dec 30, 2008 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Since When does the NSS sell Creationist Literature?

Postby graveleye » Dec 30, 2008 2:50 pm

well since Scott brought it up, I was also wondering why jaa45993 was complaining about moderators and their axes. So far as I can see, there wasn't any deleting or editing in this thread. In fact, with Scott, that makes five moderators who actually posted in this thread. That's hardly what I would consider heavy-handed moderating.
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Re: Since When does the NSS sell Creationist Literature?

Postby jharman2 » Dec 30, 2008 2:53 pm

I would like to thank Wm and the NSS for taking the proper action. Way to go!
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Re: Since When does the NSS sell Creationist Literature?

Postby YuccaPatrol » Dec 30, 2008 2:57 pm

I'm so glad I bit my tongue and kept quiet this time after being somewhat responsible for the closing of a previous thread which began to debate creation vs. science. . . :doh:
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Re: Since When does the NSS sell Creationist Literature?

Postby mgmills » Dec 30, 2008 3:25 pm

jaa45993 wrote:Third of all, it is childish and absurd that this board has a policy of banning (deleting) any religious discussion. Why not be true moderaters and actually MODERATE discussions instead of relying on blanket rules. I hope at least a few people get to read my post before it gets edited/deleted/censored by the axe-wielders.


:off topic:If you will re-read my post about the DB rules there was not any threat to edit, delete or censor any posts and if you are a regular on this board you will note that not a lot of moderating goes on and when it does it is not the decision of one moderator but mostly occurs after we moderators discuss it among ourselves (we don't always agree with each other). In general we err on the side of being lenient with offenders.

Having been a moderator when we had a political/religious section which created lots of complaints to the moderators that the posting were reflecting negatively on the NSS I think it was a good decision. However, I will say that I was one on the hold outs who wanted to keep the political/religious section but in the end the majority wanted it gone.

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Re: Since When does the NSS sell Creationist Literature?

Postby mgmills » Dec 30, 2008 3:40 pm

CaverScott wrote:
Wm Shrewsbury wrote:All,

The book mentioned here is no longer in the NSS inventory....


Warning - This is :off topic: As an aside, I would like to point out that in barely over 24 hours from the original posting, the NSS OVP was alerted of this dicussion, took action, and advised the membership of his decision. Regardless if you approve of or disagree with the decision, I wanted to point this out for those of you who frequent this forum and like to lament that "nothing ever happens" or the NSS Officers "do not listen."

Now back to our regularly scheduled and spirited discussions. :yikes:

:cavingrocks:


:off topic:

:tonguecheek: Is it responsiveness or "knee jerk reaction"? The book was reviewed in the NSS News in November. Memebers knew what it was about due to the review and requested the book. Since the NSS publicized the book by publishing the review why shouldn't they sell the book.

Due to all the "hype" I now want to read this book so I may now give my money to Amazon (it will benefit the SCCi) to buy the book since it is being pulled from the bookstore inventory. While I don't subscribe to the Creationist theories I do find reading about the way they think about our planet interesting.

:devil: Just curious . . . is the OVP now going to be reviewing all books in the bookstore to be sure they don't offend any members and is the bookstore manager going to have to get all purchases approved before ordering books to sell?

Sorry - I'm not wearing my moderator hat on this one. Maybe the other moderators will have to censor me :shrug:
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Re: Since When does the NSS sell Creationist Literature?

Postby Anonymous_Coward » Dec 30, 2008 3:49 pm

Scott McCrea wrote:You think this is childish? I wish you could read the old Religion/Politics threads. It got bad and was distracting from the mission of Cavechat.
[/quote]

I did read them. I have been a member of this forum since it was created. (and the two or three versions before that all the way back to the year 2000) :waving:

First of all, I did not mean to offend any moderators. Sorry guys. I have a problem with the rule, not with any job that any particular moderator is doing. As far as being a moderator myself, I'm sure I don't have enough time to do the job right.

I also do not miss the old religion section. It was mostly a bunch of crackpots (and reasonable people behaving like crackpots) flaming each other. What I'm complaining about is that certain threads in the forums we still have get edited or deleted or locked. For example, I was enjoying the Grand Canyon one, and was about to reply when I found it locked because it was getting "too religious". I think that is a shame.

I just really hate censorship. Maybe I have a problem with authority. Don't take it personal and don't feel like you have to change anything on my account. On this format it is really hard to have a decent conversation, without people misconstruing things. I agree with John (dang, it happened twice in one day! :yikes: ) that discussions work better around a campfire.

I just wish the discussion was a little freer, where you could let the conversation flow without getting hit with the :off topic: sign every five minutes. I have been accused of being a thread hijacker but really I just enjoy the free exchange of ideas without being constrained by rules. Maybe I don't get offended that easily. I sometimes long for the old NSS discussion board where there was no moderation, lots of wackiness, and no rules. Ahhh.... the old days.

Keep up the great job, moderators. I'll back off and just go yell my opinions out in the woods like a normal caver. Anybody want to go camping? :roll:
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