Since When does the NSS sell Creationist Literature?

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Since When does the NSS sell Creationist Literature?

Postby hewhocaves » Dec 30, 2008 12:07 am

http://nssbookstore.org/index.php?mode= ... -0628-2290

Seriously, I thought we were a scientific organization. This is an embarrassment to us, especially in light of us hosting the International Congress this year. As a member, I'd like to know exactly who was the genius who decided this reflected our viewpoints as an organization so that I can do my darnedest to make sure he or she is never in a position to make those decisions again.

The viewpoint of the author can be found in the following article, btw.

http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/210/


There honestly needs to be some accountability for this action. While the NSS should be and is tolerant of all religions, it should follow the lead of the rest of the scientific, educational and political community and not allow any religion to abuse science to further its own religious goals. Creationism has been systematically and repeatedly shown scientifically and in the courtroom to have no educational value. That the NSS offers it for sale implies a tacit approval of its contents, or at the very least that it has no disagreement with its findings. It elevates the work to a level of respectability that it does not deserve.

The NSS Bookstore might as well start selling cave formations from outside the country. Certainly, there would be a bigger market for them and a better return.

That such a publication was permitted to be sold by the bookstore in the first place is an embarrassing mistake reflective of the whole NSS community. Allowing it to continue to be sold would be an egregious error of judgment which can only result in the NSS being diminished in the eyes of serious karst people the world over. Please remove this ASAP.

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Last edited by hewhocaves on Dec 30, 2008 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Since When does the NSS sell Creationist Literature?

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Dec 30, 2008 12:47 am

That the NSS offers it for sale implies a tacit approval of its contents, or at the very least that it has no disagreement with its findings. It elevates the work to a level of respectability that it does not deserve.


Wow. Very, very well stated. I, too, would like to see this removed from our bookstore.

Having read the recent write-up in the News, I was pleased to see the reviewer's tactful criticism of the book's conclusions. I viewed this as our organization taking lengths to debunk that which is closer to propaganda than science. Instead, we're disseminating misinformation, despite acknowledging it as misinformation! Maybe the National Speleological Society is not what I thought it was.

The fact that this is sold right alongside Art Palmer's fantastic Cave Geology is embarrassing, indeed.
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Re: Since When does the NSS sell Creationist Literature?

Postby Caverdale » Dec 30, 2008 1:30 am

Add my name to the list of people who are appalled by this. It reminds me of the time when I saw a book at a Grand Canyon bookstore describing how the Canyon was created during the "Great Flood" of Noah's time. Just this afternoon, I finished reading the January 2009 issue of Scientific American's special issue on "The Evolution of Evolution", commemorating the 150th anniversary of the publication of Darwin's "On the Evolution of Species" in 1859. Many very interesting articles, culminating with "The Latest Face of Creationism", outlining the continuing efforts of creationists to have it taught in public schools. Someone needs to investigate how this happened to the NSS' bookstore and insure us that it won't happen again.
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Re: Since When does the NSS sell Creationist Literature?

Postby batrotter » Dec 30, 2008 8:45 am

"While the NSS should be and is tolerant of all religions"


The NSS might be tolerant but it sure doesn't sound like it's members are.
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Re: Since When does the NSS sell Creationist Literature?

Postby Phil Winkler » Dec 30, 2008 8:55 am

Posting here is one thing, but emailing the officers directly is more effective. I, too, am incredulous that this book is being sold by the NSS and it has nothing to do with intolerance. Please let the officers and directors know of your displeasure.
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Re: Since When does the NSS sell Creationist Literature?

Postby graveleye » Dec 30, 2008 9:40 am

I was a little surprised to see it in the library, but I don't have a problem with it. I find it a interesting that so many folks feel threatened by it actually. If suddenly the NSS bookstore skewed wholly or even partially towards religious material, then I would be concerned as well. But this is one book out of all of them. Big deal.

Don't like the book, don't buy it. It won't be on my shelf either, even alongside the various religious material I have.

But screeching and wailing to have it removed reeks of censorship. It concerns me that maybe the days of book burning really aren't over, it's just a different crew doing the burning. I think we are a little more socially secure and advanced than that.
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Re: Since When does the NSS sell Creationist Literature?

Postby caverdan » Dec 30, 2008 9:41 am

Simple solution........Put a warning sticker on the front cover and sell it as Science Fiction. Raise the price $4.00 and reap the profit. :clap:

We do sell science fiction books....correct? Why ban this book? :shrug:
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Re: Since When does the NSS sell Creationist Literature?

Postby Phil Winkler » Dec 30, 2008 9:47 am

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Re: Since When does the NSS sell Creationist Literature?

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Dec 30, 2008 9:50 am

batrotter wrote:The NSS might be tolerant but it sure doesn't sound like it's members are.

How on earth are you confusing the idea that I don't want unscientific drivel sold in our bookstore with the idea that I'm not tolerant?? Several of my closest caving buddies are church-going christians; I guess it's going to be hard for me to explain to them how intolerant I am, being that I don't endorse books written for middle-school level readers that proclaim scientific content without making use of the scientific method.

To even question how tolerant or open I am on a personal level is completely, utterly misguided and way out of line. I hope a moderator deletes your unconstructive post before this turns into a flame war.


But screeching and wailing to have it removed reeks of censorship.

So... if you don't sell an item, then you're censoring it? You seem to have a poor understanding of the meaning of that word.
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Re: Since When does the NSS sell Creationist Literature?

Postby graveleye » Dec 30, 2008 10:02 am

They're already selling it my friend. You're asking them to remove it... different idea altogether.

I think you didn't get my point. Let me reiterate.

It concerns me to see people get all bent out of shape by a book. It concerns me to see anyone get bent out of shape when they encounter an idea that is contrary to their own. It concerns me when someone gets so entirely bent out of shape when they encounter an idea that is different than their own and they seek to silence the opposing idea.
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Re: Since When does the NSS sell Creationist Literature?

Postby jharman2 » Dec 30, 2008 10:34 am

I am in lock step agreement with hewhocaves and xcathodex. I would like to direct anyone who disagrees to the NSS Mission Statement located at: http://www.caves.org/info/

It reads - "The purpose of this Society shall be to promote interest in and to advance in any and all ways the study and science of speleology, the protection of caves and their natural contents, and to promote fellowship among those interested therein."

"Creation Science" is NOT science. It does NOT employ the scientific method and is certainly NOT accepted in the scientific or academic community. This is not an issue of intolerance but rather a cut and dried issue of science versus pseudoscience. By selling the book the NSS is elevating the work to the same level as Art Palmers "Cave Geology" as stated by xcathodex.

I will NOT be renewing my membership to the NSS next year if this propaganda continues to be disseminated under the auspices of the NSS.

Today is a sad day for science and the NSS.
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Re: Since When does the NSS sell Creationist Literature?

Postby jharman2 » Dec 30, 2008 10:40 am

graveleye wrote:It concerns me to see people get all bent out of shape by a book. It concerns me to see anyone get bent out of shape when they encounter an idea that is contrary to their own. It concerns me when someone gets so entirely bent out of shape when they encounter an idea that is different than their own and they seek to silence the opposing idea.


Wrong. No one wants to have the book banned. I have no problem with it selling at Amazon or Barnes and Noble. Their mission statement is to make money not to uphold science. Selling the book on the NSS website is tantamount to endorsing its contents. The endorsement of this work and the goal of the NSS to uphold science can not coexist. Something has to go.
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Re: Since When does the NSS sell Creationist Literature?

Postby driggs » Dec 30, 2008 10:46 am

I also agree with the original post; that publications like this claim to be "science" is an insult to science, that an organization like the National Speleological Society - publisher of the most respected cave science journal in the US - recognizes this book alongside legitimate scientific works is an insult to its members.

I've spent the last two hours reading Dr. Silvestru's articles and interviews; while I have not read The Cave Book, it is very obvious that the only point of the Wonders of Creation Series (including a volume on caves, fossils, geology, astronomy, etc.) is to distort science into supporting the laughable Young Earth Theory (literal Book of Genesis, Noah's Flood, 6000 year old Earth, etc.). You won't find this theory in any peer-reviewed scientific journals, because the arguments in its favor make absurd jumps in logic or depend on twisted premises; it is certainly not consistent with the scientific method to start with a theory (the Old Testament's literal timeline) and then see only evidence that supports this pre-conceived theory while discarding all conflicting evidence.

My complaint is not at all about religious intolerance or censorship, but about our Society promoting a book that bastardizes accepted science and scientific practice. I request that the Society either remove The Cave Book from the NSS Bookstore or place it under "Cave Fiction" and change the book's description to clearly state that it ignores accepted geologic theory and re-interprets global speleogenesis according to the Bible's Old Testament.
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Re: Since When does the NSS sell Creationist Literature?

Postby graveleye » Dec 30, 2008 10:46 am

jharman2 wrote: Something has to go.


My point exactly.
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Re: Since When does the NSS sell Creationist Literature?

Postby hewhocaves » Dec 30, 2008 10:48 am

This is not censorship. If I wrote a book about the best caves in the country to take formations from, complete with directions... should the NSS Bookstore sell that? Simply because a organization chooses not to sell something does NOT mean that they are censuring it. If we started a campaign to remove all copies of this book everywhere, then THAT would be censorship. I don't see anyone suggesting that.

The Bookstore does need to pull it, as stated before, because our selling it grants the book a certain legitimacy that say, Amazon.com does not. To quote from the stated goals of the NSS: "To advance the study of caves and the science of speleology" (from the 2007 Annual Report, p.2)
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