The Publishing of Cave Locations....

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Postby Teresa » Oct 10, 2007 11:18 pm

Cavemud wrote:Every bulletin I've seen published by the MAR has detailed descriptions of cave locations! :doh: While I love these bulletins, they are not good for the caves OR the landowners! I opted out of puttin' together guidebooks because of the location information. I'm wonderin'....how many of you out there who help put these together get approval from the landowner? I've done a little research on this and 95 % of the landowners I've talked to have NO KNOWLEDGE of their cave bein' published in a bulletin that's for sale to just about anyone! That's just WRONG!!! :hairpull:

Soooo....all you bulletin publishers out there....keep the landowners informed of what you are workin' on so we don't get more cave closures!


I think, if you are so against what the MAR is allegedly doing, you should not purchase or read any more bulletins from them. Hey, someone could tempt you with alcohol or large sums of money to reveal what you know.
If no one buys them, no one will put them together.

It's not illegal to reveal cave locations except by the feds of significant caves. IMO-- it should not be made illegal. Anything not illegal is tolerated if not sanctioned. That you think it is wrong is merely your opinion. Revelation of cave locations is a gray area-- not always right, nor always wrong.

Landowners will do what they will do, and sometimes for the slightest of reasons or none at all. If landowners don't already know there are people in their caves, we're dealing with other serious issues (like trespassing) as well. You haven't specified what kinds of locations are being revealed, either. GPS? Lat/Long? quarter section? To the nearest quad?

Before making your argument, I think you should substantiate it with a little detail.
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Postby tncaver » Oct 11, 2007 6:41 am

Per the request of John Lovaas:
Zarathustra Cave Tennessee as reported by Joe
Douglass on Tag-Net.
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Postby tncaver » Oct 11, 2007 7:10 am

More on The Nature Conservancy and the Tennessee Wildlife
Resources Agency:
http://www.nashvillegrotto.org/tnc-new- ... ction-work
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Postby tncaver » Oct 11, 2007 7:21 am

Wolf River Cave, TN is another cave that the Tennessee Wildlife
Resources Agency and The Nature Conservancy teamed up to
buy and gate. Fortunately it was bought by The Southeast Cave
Conservancy, Inc. (SCCi). Therefore visitation is possible when
the bats are not hibernating.
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Postby MUD » Oct 11, 2007 8:37 am

No alledgedness about it....get on the Middle Appalachian Region's website. You will see bulletins for sale. I have several but have not bought any since the late eighties.

Some of these bulletins have exact directions right to the cave. No its not illegal. I'm not sayin' it should be. But as cavers we should think a little before publishin' stuff. I think alot of it is ego....some people like to see their name in print.

No, I'm not against publishin' things either....I think its a good thing.
The caves location doesn't need to be published! Cavers will find caves without a map to it. I've found many just by talkin' to the locals and ridgewalkin' myself. Remember folks....just an opinion from ole 'mud!

:grin:
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Postby tncaver » Oct 11, 2007 8:50 am

Just because something is not illegal, that does not
mean it is not unethical or illogical. Ethics is something
that needs to be practiced a lot more by cavers and
everyone.
If everyone practiced ethics we would have a lot fewer
problems to deal with. Many very simple transgressions
are simply a matter of ethics. From tossing cigarette
butts down in a cave to publishing cave locations on the
web where vandals and gem collectors could use the
information to cause harm, ethics would help create a
better way of life for us all. :patriotic2:
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Postby boogercaver71 » Oct 11, 2007 9:09 am

Land bought with tax dollars (or stolen from a private citizen through eminent domain) should be for public use. Hikers and climbers do not have restrictions placed upon them on where they can hike or climb. Why should cavers. Are hikers and climbers more conservation minded and better stewards than we are? I would also contend that anyone who ventures onto public land to enjoy its beauty should be required to buy a "rescue" insurance policy. I don't think I should have to pay for rescuing some one off a mountain top or deep in a cave or airlifted from the bottom of the Grand Canyon. Why not give out permits to cavers for the non-tourist entrances of Mammoth or Lechiguilla or any other cave on public land? And why do we as cavers always have to "accomplish" something when we go in a cave. I am not talking about picking up trash we might find along the way. Although I do enjoy surveying and restoration work, I sometimes like to go caving just to have fun. Are hikers and climbers ( I am not picking on these 2 groups) on work trips when they venture out to the woods or mountain tops? No they go because to enjoy the beauty set aside for that purpose. I guess I am just saying cavers should enjoy the same freedoms on publicly funded lands as hikers and climbers have enjoyed since the beginning.[/quote]
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Postby boogercaver71 » Oct 11, 2007 9:09 am

Land bought with tax dollars (or stolen from a private citizen through eminent domain) should be for public use. Hikers and climbers do not have restrictions placed upon them on where they can hike or climb. Why should cavers. Are hikers and climbers more conservation minded and better stewards than we are? I would also contend that anyone who ventures onto public land to enjoy its beauty should be required to buy a "rescue" insurance policy. I don't think I should have to pay for rescuing some one off a mountain top or deep in a cave or airlifted from the bottom of the Grand Canyon. Why not give out permits to cavers for the non-tourist entrances of Mammoth or Lechiguilla or any other cave on public land? And why do we as cavers always have to "accomplish" something when we go in a cave. I am not talking about picking up trash we might find along the way. Although I do enjoy surveying and restoration work, I sometimes like to go caving just to have fun. Are hikers and climbers ( I am not picking on these 2 groups) on work trips when they venture out to the woods or mountain tops? No they go because to enjoy the beauty set aside for that purpose. I guess I am just saying cavers should enjoy the same freedoms on publicly funded lands as hikers and climbers have enjoyed since the beginning.[/quote]
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Postby boogercaver71 » Oct 11, 2007 9:12 am

Sorry for some reson when I "post a reply" and submit it posts it twice
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Postby MoonshineR DavE » Oct 11, 2007 9:32 am

boogercaver71 wrote:Sorry for some reson when I "post a reply" and submit it posts it twice


Yeah, mine does that every now and then. :hairpull:
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Postby MUD » Oct 11, 2007 9:48 am

Ethics is something
that needs to be practiced a lot more by cavers and
everyone.


Yessum...I agree! :exactly:
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Postby icave » Oct 11, 2007 12:42 pm

Cavemud wrote:<snip>

Some of these bulletins have exact directions right to the cave. No its not illegal. I'm not sayin' it should be. But as cavers we should think a little before publishin' stuff. I think alot of it is ego....some people like to see their name in print.

No, I'm not against publishin' things either....I think its a good thing.
The caves location doesn't need to be published! Cavers will find caves without a map to it. I've found many just by talkin' to the locals and ridgewalkin' myself. Remember folks....just an opinion from ole 'mud!

:grin:


I personally think putting cave locations in the MAR Bulletins is a good thing. Many of these caves would become "lost" or completely inaccessible to regular cavers if it were not for the bulletins. I do not know of one case where a MAR bulletin has resulted in damage to a cave. Access to the bulletins is reasonably controlled.

What good is description and a map when you can't find the cave? Descriptions, access, etc. all change over the years. Without a location, it becomes almost impossible to try to keep this information up to date. I have used the MAR bulletins many times to check and update the status of caves. I can tell you that many of the documented MAR Bulletins caves in our area (Leigh, Northampton, Berks, Bucks) have not been visited other than one or two times since the bulletins were written. Very few cavers know where many of the caves, or what their current status is.

If a caves is very sensitive, then don't publish the location. I have been doing project work on a local cave that will never have it's location published. There is no requirement for a bulletin to contain a location and if you've ever used the directions in the counties I've referenced above, you would know that many of the location descriptions are off a little.

What's next, stop publishing cave locations in our newsletters?
Signature, I don't need no stinkin signature!
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Postby icave » Oct 11, 2007 12:42 pm

Please disregard, duplicate post...I guess I can say "me too" on the click once post twice. 8-(
Signature, I don't need no stinkin signature!
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Postby tncaver » Oct 11, 2007 4:23 pm

The Tennessee Cave Survey requires that at least two members
sign the application form before approval into the TCS is allowed.
Cave locations are provided to all members who pay dues and pay
for the printing. This plan has worked well in most cases. However,
I approved an application years ago for someone who has become
a prolific cave gater in the Southeast. At the time that person was
an upcoming caver who showed promise and had no affiliation to
cave conservancies and gating.
If I could go back in time I would refuse to sign that application form
because I suspect this individual uses the TCS information to actively
seek out caves to gate.
Just because a cave has bats and/or some other feature is no reason
to gate them. Some do need gating when there is a danger of damage
or vandalism, but most don't in my opinion. And the problem is that
some of these caves have no visitation plan once they've been gated.
I keep telling myself that had I not signed that application that some
one else would have anyway. But it still does not make me feel much
better.
My kingdom for a time machine. ( I would play the lottery while I
was back in time, he, he. ) Opps. So much for ethics.
:wtg:
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Postby NZcaver » Oct 11, 2007 4:44 pm

So your guy just went around gating all these caves for kicks, regardless of the wishes and needs of the various landowners? :question:
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