Any progress on publishing manual in pdf format to save$

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Re: Any progress on publishing manual in pdf format to save$

Postby UnderGroundEarth » Apr 18, 2012 1:06 pm

gregmathis1 wrote:Got the new members manual which is nice. Any progress towards going paperless? $20,000 printing costs would go a long way to buying caves! I MAKE A MOTION WE PUT IT TO THE MEMBERS IN THE FORM OF A REFERENDUM. The cost of mailing ballots would be small compared to the yearly saving ( assuming it would pass). NSS could still provide manuals for those still offline.

Greg


The overall costs were $18,270. The actual printing is $10,200. There are other costs associated such as postage (domestic & foreign), the mailing service, etc... See below for breakdown.

Members Manual Publication deferred to FY 2012/13 $18,270
MM Honorarium 350
MM Design & Layout 0
MM Production 100
MM Printing 10,200
MM Mailing Service 1,530
MM Postage 3,740
MM Foreign Postage 1,200
MM Shipping 1,000
MM Misc. 150

And if you look further, this was actually cheaper than the previous one...
NSS Member's Manual 2010 $20,300
NSS Mem Man Honorarium 315
NSS Mem Man layout and design 0
NSS Mem Man Production 950
NSS Mem Man Printing 11,000
NSS Mem Man Mail Serv. 1,785
NSS Mem Man Postage - Domestic 4,250
NSS Mem Man Postage - Foreign 1,500
NSS Mem Man Shipping 500
NSS Mem Man Misc. 0
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Re: Any progress on publishing manual in pdf format to save$

Postby Cheryl Jones » Apr 18, 2012 11:44 pm

UnderGroundEarth wrote:I stand corrected, corrected by my self... I searched further (apparently I wasn't looking for the right key words)....

From NSS Board of Governors Meeting Minutes July, 2011 v5 9

15) Repeal of Electronic Publishing of Members Manual Act
Putnam moved: Act 84-817 (Electronic Publishing of the Members Manual) is repealed.
Cole seconded.
VOTE: In Favor: Majority
Opposed: Liebman

So there you have it... Our BOG has spoken and it seems they do not want to make it electronic.


Without knowing the original act, you've gotten it backwards and assumed the worst! The act that was rescinded forbid the electronic publishing of the MM. By rescinding the act, the Board removed the "legal" obstacle to doing so.

The text of Act 84-817 was: "The Members Manual shall not be published electronically."

The MM is the responsibility of the Executive VP -- he/she is responsible for making a pdf version happen. The NSS is looking for (very much needs) candidates for EVP the election this summer. Please help us find qualified, willing, and competent candidates who will take initiative and lead the department. (Otherwise a warm body may be elected to fill the position!) The EVP is responsible for all our pubs, including periodicals, Caver Digests, and books. More info: http://www.caves.org/info/execsearch/ If you would like to see changes of any kind in our pubs, or simply be involved to help make a difference in the area of NSS publishing, then this is your chance.

We also need (as far as I know) a new editor for the Members Manual. After years of doing a terrific job, Meredith has stepped down. Changing the format of the MM will also need a willing and capable editor to work with the IT Committee and EVP on an electronic version.

As you may have read in the announcement on CaveChat, the IT Committee has begun the rather large project of redesigning and reorganizing the NSS Web site, thanks to a few members who have volunteered for the project. The new version will have a secure sign-in system for members, which is the first necessary step before offering electronic versions of current publications--and even books--including the MM, through the website. It will also allow other functions on the site that we can't now incorporate for security reasons.

Things usually get done in the NSS simply because one person or a small dedicated team has the vision, desire, and dedication to make them happen, and then does what is necessary. The NSS is always looking for--or certainly needs-- those people, for the success, development, and future of the Society depend on them.

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Re: Any progress on publishing manual in pdf format to save$

Postby UnderGroundEarth » Apr 19, 2012 7:06 am

Thank you Cheryl. I went thru several years and did not see the original act (84-817) but have since found it in the minutes from the April 2009 meeting (https://secure.caves.org/nss-business/m ... 904BOG.pdf).
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Re: Any progress on publishing manual in pdf format to save$

Postby Cheryl Jones » Apr 19, 2012 2:08 pm

And if you look further, this was actually cheaper than the previous one...


I believe you're looking at budgets, not actual costs. Budgets of course simply provide guidelines and aspirations.

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Re: Any progress on publishing manual in pdf format to save$

Postby gdstorrick » Apr 22, 2012 2:48 pm

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Re: Any progress on publishing manual in pdf format to save$

Postby gdstorrick » Apr 22, 2012 2:51 pm

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Re: Any progress on publishing manual in pdf format to save$

Postby David Grimes » Apr 22, 2012 3:44 pm

I really have nothing against a paper version for those who want it. I personally would be just fine with a digital copy since I really do not use the paper copy but I like having the info if I need it but I would never carry the paper copy with me.

I might come across as favoring digital but that is primarily a trait of most people in the IT industry. The real issue is that people believe that computers are these really expensive high tech things that are subject to constant problems and data loss. That might have been the case at one point but that is no longer an accurate perception. In reality anything stored in a digital format is very secure and if stored correctly would be available forever. There are many members in the NSS who are weary of any type of new technology and will never fully support the use of any type of computer for primary storage of archives. We really need to move past that hurdle and catch up with the rest of the world because we are only holding ourselves back. Technology is not scary and is not plagued with problems.
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Re: Any progress on publishing manual in pdf format to save$

Postby NZcaver » Apr 22, 2012 5:35 pm

David Grimes wrote:I really have nothing against a paper version for those who want it. I personally would be just fine with a digital copy since I really do not use the paper copy but I like having the info if I need it but I would never carry the paper copy with me.

Same goes for me. It's nice to reference the hard copy MM and read the NSS News, but it's a little frustrating to move to new places several times each year with ever-increasing piles of NSS literature crammed in the vehicle or the flight luggage. My alternative is stashing this stuff in little gear caches around the country relying on the goodness of family and friends. I wouldn't dream of depriving other members of paper copies if that's their preference, but electronic everything would be perfect for me.
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Re: Any progress on publishing manual in pdf format to save$

Postby Cheryl Jones » Apr 22, 2012 8:40 pm

The NSS can always (should) have a couple copies of each MM and any other electronic pub printed professionally for the library.

And of course anyone could print their own hard copy from the pdf.

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Re: Any progress on publishing manual in pdf format to save$

Postby gdstorrick » Apr 23, 2012 4:49 am

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Re: Any progress on publishing manual in pdf format to save$

Postby David Grimes » Apr 23, 2012 2:28 pm

I agree Gary and if you like the paper version then by all means you should get the paper version. It just seems to me that since the MM likely starts out in a digital format anyway before it is printed, why does the NSS not allow members to opt for a digital version instead.
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Re: Any progress on publishing manual in pdf format to save$

Postby Teresa » Apr 24, 2012 2:42 pm

David Grimes wrote:
That might have been the case at one point but that is no longer an accurate perception. In reality anything stored in a digital format is very secure and if stored correctly would be available forever. There are many members in the NSS who are weary of any type of new technology and will never fully support the use of any type of computer for primary storage of archives. We really need to move past that hurdle and catch up with the rest of the world because we are only holding ourselves back. Technology is not scary and is not plagued with problems.


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :boxing: :down: :shrug: :rofl: :rofl:


I trust you've never had a disk go bad, or a hard drive spontaneously crash, or a cloud solution destroy all your data. Or two computers (both your primary and your backup) turn rubber feed to the air within two months of each other. And have had my external hard drive with all my work files for a year crash and burn. Not reliable, nor pretty.

If so, you are living a charmed life indeed. Of course, most likely, you are not living in one of the white zones on a cell map. I live on the northern edge of one which covers much of south central and southeast Missouri, even where I am, the best internet speeds you can get is 384kpbs-1.5 MBps due to the poor infrastructure, which is only deteriorating, it is a 20-30 mile drive to nearest office supply store; the local computer techs work in an old tire store.
The "rest of the world" has money for RAID array backups. Around here, RAID is something in a can you spray on roaches.
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Re: Any progress on publishing manual in pdf format to save$

Postby David Grimes » Apr 24, 2012 3:17 pm

Actually I live in a rural area of Indiana with a 1MBps DSL connection (and thats at absolute best). In Florida I have a much better connection and far more resources. I understand the limits of living in remote areas. In the case you mention from your own experience is pretty much an absolute worst case scenario. I am a freelance programmer so all my work is done digitally and stored digitally. I use a wide variety of storage options from my personal computer/server to removable media. I do not rely on any one piece of equipment because things do happen and I cannot afford to lose weeks worth of work.

I maintain all my computers with regular updates/maintenance and have had little to no trouble over the years. The key is that I still expect something to go wrong so I keep multiple copies of my work. I would never just keep one copy of something and think that is adequate, the same is likely true for any real archive (unless there is not more than one hard copy). If you kept 2-3 copies or more of all your work you would likely never lose anything. I will also add that in my years of repairing computers in my spare time most of the problems were caused by the user. That is not always the case and likely not the case in your scenario.

I really think this is just nitpicking since I do agree that there is a need for hard copies. I just want to be able to choose which one I want.
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