Any progress on publishing manual in pdf format to save$

[gregmathis1]

Got the new members manual which is nice. Any progress towards going paperless? $20,000 printing costs would go a long way to buying caves! I MAKE A MOTION WE PUT IT TO THE MEMBERS IN THE FORM OF A REFERENDUM. The cost of mailing ballots would be small compared to the yearly saving ( assuming it would pass). NSS could still provide manuals for those still offline.

Greg

[David Grimes]

I was under the impression that the members manual was going to a digital only format. I am not sure where I heard it but I thought that was the case but maybe I am wrong.

[tncaver]

Got the new members manual which is nice. Any progress towards going paperless? $20,000 printing costs would go a long way to buying caves! I MAKE A MOTION WE PUT IT TO THE MEMBERS IN THE FORM OF A REFERENDUM. The cost of mailing ballots would be small compared to the yearly saving ( assuming it would pass). NSS could still provide manuals for those still offline.

Greg

I predict any savings would be applied to the new headquarters rather than buying any new caves.

[David Grimes]

I predict any savings would be applied to the new headquarters rather than buying any new caves.

In my opinion that works just fine. While I was not really in favor of a new headquarters I do not feel the NSS should even be in the business of owning caves. I think that should be left to caving groups in each state to setup their organizations and purchase local caves. I would not be opposed to the NSS issuing larger grants to organizations on a case by case basis for purchasing caves.

Either way that is way off topic, does anyone here know for sure if the members manual is going digital?

[gdstorrick]

Post deleted.

[Cheryl Jones]

I MAKE A MOTION WE PUT IT TO THE MEMBERS IN THE FORM OF A REFERENDUM. The cost of mailing ballots would be small compared to the yearly saving ( assuming it would pass). NSS could still provide manuals for those still offline.

Greg

Walk the talk! Have your grotto submit a motion for consideration by the Congress of Grottos this summer. (See the call for issues in the most recent NSS NSS News) All resolutions passed by the Congress must be considered by the Board. More info: https://secure.caves.org/nss-business/congress/ Deadline for this summer's agenda for circulation prior to the Congress was this past Sunday. But if you act quickly, maybe it can be included. Contact the Congress Chairman Bill Stringfellow at cog@caves.org.

Cheryl

[gregmathis1]

So Gary, what's your argument against going digital?

[UnderGroundEarth]

So Gary, what's your argument against going digital?

You can't exactly carry a digital copy in your vehicle and look up cavers while you are traveling. Sure you can carry your smart phone,tablet, laptop, etc... and look it up that way but hey not all of us want to be connected all the time. I also prefer to have the print copy and I refer to it often. However, I do feel that if it could be made digital then that should be an option for those who want it in that format. But regardless if only half of the members wanted it digital there will still be printing costs involved. Typically the fewer you have printed the higher the costs. Discounts are greater the more you have printed. I do feel print copies have a lot of value for a lot of us.

[Teresa]

Another reason: wily marketers. While it is not too difficult to scan and OCR a book the size of the Member's manual, that takes some dedication to do. Jailbreak a pdf into database form? Surely it's rarely happened, and when it has, it takes IT professionals to do! *|:-^)

While there are few caving equipment suppliers, most cavers I know also camp, kayak, canoe, climb, do other SRT -- and there is always a market for a self-selected "outdoor persons" dataset. I know. Since I work for an outdoor newspaper we're regularly solicited for our subscribers list. We don't give it out....

Paper is fine for me. If someone is going to steal the info, let's make them work for it! Plus there are archival reasons for paper. Ours may be the first generation since heirogyphics where information is being lost by the boatload simply for lack of a way to read an 8", 5.25: or even 3.5" floppy disk.

[David Grimes]

I understand the need for a paper version and like noted it would probably cost more to print fewer paper copies. Archival reasons I would have to disagree with since electronic storage is far more efficient and if done properly it would be safer than a paper copy in terms of potential loss of information.

I personally do not carry a members manual with me on trips and honestly I have never used it to contact another caver. Most of the people I would need/want to contact I have their numbers in my phone already. I would be happy with a digital copy.

[Teresa]

I understand the need for a paper version and like noted it would probably cost more to print fewer paper copies. Archival reasons I would have to disagree with since electronic storage is far more efficient and if done properly it would be safer than a paper copy in terms of potential loss of information.

Please do tell what digital format besides paper will be readable 25 years from now and which are not subject to catastrophic media failure. There are hundreds of thousands of archivists who would love to know. (Not meant in a mean fashion; but the number of man-hours and money that goes into rote media related copying is enormous, and stuff gets lost anyway.) I don't have anything I did 25 years ago digitally which is still accessible in the original format.

[snoboy]

Just a thought, and as I have no horse in this race, feel free to disregard...

If the member's manual is sent out as a digital format, that saves the NSS money right? Those members who want a paper copy can print one off.. thus downloading [groan] the cost to those who want the arguably outdated format. A few copies can also be printed off in the same manner for the archives.

[David Grimes]

Teresa you are looking at it in terms of format only. Like anything else as different formats are created and updated the members manual would be done also. We are not going to go from using a PDF to suddenly a totally different format tomorrow and not allow the old format to be updated. Microsoft Office documents are a perfect example, the older formats are no longer used but the newer versions will update the old ones so they can be opened and modified using the new system. Being accessible in the original format is not really important so long as it is accessible. Really there are probably very few formats out there that could not be opened today, you may have to spend some time searching for software that will open it but it generally is still possible.

In terms of security you have so many storage options. You have cloud storage on a virtual server, you have physical computers and servers at the NSS headquarters and you also have all the members who have a digital copy. In a paper version you have a hard version that is subject to being destroyed in a flood/fire/theft/etc. The only backup option is getting one from a member or keeping physical copies in different locations which is the same as a virtual backup except you must store physical merchandise that takes up space and costs money to transfer around. While the cost may be small it is still not as good an option as a digital backup. I am not sure what the NSS uses to create the members manual but I can almost guarantee it starts out in a digital form first anyways and is probably already archived in digital format.

[UnderGroundEarth]

Just a thought, and as I have no horse in this race, feel free to disregard...

If the member's manual is sent out as a digital format, that saves the NSS money right? Those members who want a paper copy can print one off.. thus downloading [groan] the cost to those who want the arguably outdated format. A few copies can also be printed off in the same manner for the archives.

I believe if you talked to enough cavers you would find there are more out there that do carry a copy around with them and use it to contact and find cavers when they are traveling. I searched past minutes from BOG meetings and could not find a mention of it possibly going digital... So as Cheryl said -

Walk the talk! Have your grotto submit a motion for consideration by the Congress of Grottos this summer. (See the call for issues in the most recent NSS NSS News) All resolutions passed by the Congress must be considered by the Board. More info: https://secure.caves.org/nss-business/congress/ Deadline for this summer's agenda for circulation prior to the Congress was this past Sunday. But if you act quickly, maybe it can be included. Contact the Congress Chairman Bill Stringfellow at cog@caves.org.

Cheryl

I'd be interested to see how many cavers at the Congress of Grottos would be interested in voting in favor of passing the motion along to the BOG...!

[UnderGroundEarth]

I stand corrected, corrected by my self... I searched further (apparently I wasn't looking for the right key words)....

From NSS Board of Governors Meeting Minutes July, 2011 v5 9

15) Repeal of Electronic Publishing of Members Manual Act
Putnam moved: Act 84-817 (Electronic Publishing of the Members Manual) is repealed.
Cole seconded.
VOTE: In Favor: Majority
Opposed: Liebman

So there you have it... Our BOG has spoken and it seems they do not want to make it electronic.