There Won’t Be a 2011 NSS Members Manual and Here’s Why

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Re: There Won’t Be a 2011 NSS Members Manual and Here’s Why

Postby wyandottecaver » May 9, 2011 7:39 pm

Several State Cave Surveys also support secure online databases...at nominal cost. Yes, they could be hacked by a determined enough person. Then again, I doubt that even a single one of our 11,000+ members doesn't have their name/phone/address in some spam database somewhere.

One of my jobs for the Government was to find good current addresses and phone numbers for people to send them surveys. Mostly we could find you in one of the public commercial databases.

We shouldn't make it EASY to get the information, but a paper book is hardly foolproof either. I assure you that if you order a magazine, order pizza (or anything else) online or by phone, your info is being SOLD. Some State BMV agencies sell their data!

Letting the NSS save money in exchange for the very slight risk of having information taken that's probably already been sold anyway seems a good trade.
I'm not scared of the dark, it's the things IN the dark that make me nervous. :)
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Re: There Won’t Be a 2011 NSS Members Manual and Here’s Why

Postby Cheryl Jones » May 9, 2011 9:30 pm

Why are members only hearing about this now? And why is it the editor and not the EC or the EVP making this announcement to the membership? :mad: That is wrong.

The EC decision, with the approval of the Board, to cut/change a member service (to balance the budget? :roll: ) is very significant. Especially considering it concerns the MM, arguably our most important membership benefit. But yet again, the officers obviously didn't think communicating with the membership was necessary. Simply announcing the decision in the S-T report to the Board is not adequate, for most members don't read officer reports.

I have to say that this looks particularly silly coming so soon after the Board decided to publish in the fall (without consulting with the editor) rather than the spring. So much for strategic planning. :doh:

Kinda makes ya wonder what other important decisions have been made that affect the membership that our officers haven't announced. :question:

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Re: There Won’t Be a 2011 NSS Members Manual and Here’s Why

Postby merecaver » May 10, 2011 3:35 am

To be fair to the EVP, we talked about it, and I agreed to post this because I had already written most of it for my committee report to the BOG. And it was as late as it was because I wanted his okay on the wording, and then I got so busy that I sort of forgot about it for a few weeks.
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Re: There Won’t Be a 2011 NSS Members Manual and Here’s Why

Postby tncaver » May 10, 2011 9:19 am

Cheryl Jones, maybe you and Martha Mills should run for the BOG next time. It is obvious that the NSS is becoming unraveled at an alarming rate, and possibly because the people in charge of each function don't know the rules. You and Martha Mills are two of the most knowledgeable people I know concerning
the internal workings, rules and functions of the NSS. I think your knowledge is desperately needed either as an official officer or as regular advisors to all officers of the organization.

Now, may I also point out that new members may not be pleased to learn that they may not receive a member's manual for up to 18 months. This may also
be disappointing considering that the NSS has raised it's dues recently. All members pay dues which entitles them to a members manual. It is a huge
disconnect for both new and old members to not receive the services they are paying for.

I have viewed some of the monthly reports sent to grottoes that indicate the number of members who move, change status, are late, drop out, or rejoin. The numbers are in the hundreds every month. With so many changes on a regular basis, an old manual could truly be obsolete after 18 months. My one cent. :tonguecheek:
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Re: There Won’t Be a 2011 NSS Members Manual and Here’s Why

Postby Phil Winkler » May 10, 2011 9:30 am

We do have an online database, updated daily, of all current members that lists their City & State. You can search by a variety of criteria. With that info it wouldn't be hard to use a phone book or online search to find someone's address or phone#.
http://www.caves.org/membersearch/index.php

This data wouldn't be of much use to spammers anyway even if they could get it.
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Re: There Won’t Be a 2011 NSS Members Manual and Here’s Why

Postby Cheryl Jones » May 10, 2011 1:26 pm

merecaver wrote:To be fair to the EVP, we talked about it, and I agreed to post this because I had already written most of it for my committee report to the BOG. And it was as late as it was because I wanted his okay on the wording, and then I got so busy that I sort of forgot about it for a few weeks.


But it should be the EVP or S-T presenting the case to the membership for not fulfilling an important membership benefit for a year -- we promise on line, in our membership brochure, and in the Board acts an "annual" members manual -- and for deciding to use the MM to balance the budget. (What happens next year when the budget won't balance?)

If the change had taken effect in 2011 rather than immediately, or the decision had been made last November rather than April, then the MM could have stayed on an annual schedule, if that had been a priority for the Board.

tncaver wrote:Now, may I also point out that new members may not be pleased to learn that they may not receive a member's manual for up to 18 months. This may also
be disappointing considering that the NSS has raised it's dues recently.

The MM is overprinted each year, in theory in an amount that allows each new member who joins during the year to receive one with their membership card. But I don't know if there'll be enough to carry us through those extra, perhaps 9 months. If the Membership Committee is effective in increasing the number of new members this year, as we would hope, then it would seem there'll not be enough copies to go around.

tncaver wrote:Cheryl Jones, maybe you and Martha Mills should run for the BOG next time.

I appreciate your confidence, but I spent 10 years on the Board. Enough!

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Re: There Won’t Be a 2011 NSS Members Manual and Here’s Why

Postby wyandottecaver » May 10, 2011 4:30 pm

well not to split hairs, but since I haven't seen this as an IO announcement email or in the NEWS I would say they haven't YET truly communicated with the membership........

TN, don't worry. In a few yrs the NSS will have a remodeled bank with no one and nothing left to put in it...including money or members. The MM will probably be a post-it note on Phil's desk.

I do in fact agree with the decision overall.

Funny how NO ONE who seems reasonable, knowledgeable, and impartial and who has served on the Board wants to go back....Even Bill P seems to have started noticing the water sloshing around his feet in spite of the band playing bravely on :big grin:
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Re: There Won’t Be a 2011 NSS Members Manual and Here’s Why

Postby Phil Winkler » May 10, 2011 4:59 pm

Hey, hey..Jay Clark went back. As have others.

Somebody has to fix things and I think it is going to happen.
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Re: There Won’t Be a 2011 NSS Members Manual and Here’s Why

Postby merecaver » May 10, 2011 5:59 pm

This same notice will appear in the July NSS News. I sent it in at the same time, but of course, Cave Chat is quicker to get a message out.

I do appreciate how much interest this has generated.

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Re: There Won’t Be a 2011 NSS Members Manual and Here’s Why

Postby Cheryl Jones » May 11, 2011 8:34 am

merecaver wrote:This same notice will appear in the July NSS News. I sent it in at the same time, but of course, Cave Chat is quicker to get a message out.

I do appreciate how much interest this has generated.

Meredith


Meredith, you're doing great to get the word out! I appreciate it, for otherwise we'd never know what was happening until the MM didn't arrive. I don't want you to think I'm upset with you. I'm frustrated that (once again) the Board or an appropriate officer didn't communicate with members about their management decision, or understand the importance of doing so -- and doing so soon after the decision had been made. :doh:

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Re: There Won’t Be a 2011 NSS Members Manual and Here’s Why

Postby merecaver » May 11, 2011 1:49 pm

Didn't think that at all. Just knowing you are looking out for the members!
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Re: There Won’t Be a 2011 NSS Members Manual and Here’s Why

Postby mgmills » May 11, 2011 2:53 pm

tncaver wrote:Cheryl Jones, maybe you and Martha Mills should run for the BOG next time.




:off topic:

Thanks for the vote of confidence :grin:

For the record, I did not seek a second term on the BOG due to a major life change. During my term on the BOG I got married, left an employer of 30 years and relocated to another state. At my old job I had "mega vacation days" accumulated and was in a very flexible schedule. Now, although I do have a job I love, my work life is much less flexible in terms of me having control of my schedule and I have much less vacation time accumulated. I use it almost as soon as I get it earned. BOG meetings are scheduled around what works for the group hosting the meeting and if one was scheduled on a weekend I was supposed to work (I work every other weekend) I'd have to send a proxy. I think that if I was to commit to serve I should commit to attending the meetings.

That said, i know when I was on the BOG it was not always easy to decide what was best for the organization and some of my friends did not always agree with my opinions on certain issues. If some one is truly committed as a BOG member they will spend many hours researching issues. Right now my life doesn't have the time for me to do that. Now if I was to win "the big lottery" and be able to quit work I might consider serving. . . However, since I don't buy lottery tickets that isn't likely to happen. Also, at this time in my life I'm spending some of my off time traveling 3 hours one way to visit my aging mom and my fast growing 5 yr old granddaughter.


Now back to the original topic . . .

For the record, I'm OK with publishing every 18 months. I do like the hard copy but I'm "old school" . . . I still prefer to read a book in book form, not on a "computer screen" . . . I like flipping through the members manual. I love the data breakdowns in the front of the manual.

I also agree with Cheryl in her opinion that the officers of the organization should communicate with NSS cavers online. Mike Hood and then Scott Fee were both NSS Presidents who talked with us via the discussion board. It looks like Wm will restart the trend. . . I hope he can get the other officers to do likewise.
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Re: There Won’t Be a 2011 NSS Members Manual and Here’s Why

Postby Bill Putnam » May 14, 2011 10:02 am

I am sponsoring a motion on the agenda of the July BOG meeting to repeal the act Wm mentioned above (that prevents electronic publication of the Members Manual) and am pushing for the MM to be available via a members-only area on the NSS web site. Many other organizations do that, and we can do it as well at minimal cost.
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Re: There Won’t Be a 2011 NSS Members Manual and Here’s Why

Postby tncaver » May 14, 2011 10:49 am

Bill,
A lot of Cave Chat members post their NSS numbers along with their bio. Will the posting of their NSS number pose a greater threat
that someone will be able to access an online member manual? If hackers can hack current online member forums, isn't it possible
they could gain access to an online members manual if they already have a name and NSS number provided by Cave Chat? Just asking.
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Re: There Won’t Be a 2011 NSS Members Manual and Here’s Why

Postby rchrds » Jun 13, 2011 1:48 am

No problems here. I also prefer the printed members manual, and missing one for a year wont kill me.
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