Picture in the Feb 2006 NSS News

[Teresa]

Astroturtle

While I respect your viewpoint, many, many European cemeteries have been desecrated, dug up, moved, had interstate highways run through them, been incorporated into campgrounds in parks, had archeology performed on them, been looted and so forth both in America and in Europe, and likely for much longer than the 400 years of Europeans in America. For better or worse, we're just used to it.

There is a distinct difference to the Euro way of thinking between images of something and the thing itself. While I agree with the general wrongness of having someone's actual bones on display for amusement purposes (or being actively disrespected), I have no such compunction about photographs. One of the most moving things I have ever seen in terms of life-changing, this must never happen again images I have ever seen was a film of the Nazi death camps, complete with starved bodies, bones and so forth. You cannot have seen that and then be a Holocaust denier. Again, these are images, not actual artifacts. IMO, if more people saw unprettified death, war casualties, natural disaster victims, and so forth, instead of them being 'hidden', more would be moved to improve conditions on behalf of the living, and to ensure that more of us died peacefully in our beds at age 95.

By the way, both my parent's bodies have been destroyed. Nothing remains but ash scattered to the wind, so the argument--what if this happened to *your* family-- doesn't affect me much, either.

It's a different cultural construct, which of course doesn't invalidate your views. But all of us have to share the same planet-- the grease which makes that possible is respect for differences.

[wendy]

Well we do certainly do a diverse group of members here, which is a good thing, as it is important to be open to other peoples thoughts and ideas even though you may not agree with them all of the time.

I wouldn't trade any of you for someone else for anything in the world. You keep life interesting for all of us.

Now everyone get off the computer and go caving!!!!!

[claustrophobe]

Dave Bunnell does a fine job as editor of the NSS News, and a fine job as a photographer. We're lucky to have as devoted a member as him to take on the job.
Carry on Dave, and keep doing what you think is right. I'll take integrity over "tap dancing" any day. The older I get, the more I appreciate straight talk. If you tell it like it is, and allow the members to express their ideas, you're miles ahead of the rest, and you've got my vote.
"We don't need no stinking censor", we're grownups, dammit!

[Squirrel Girl]

"We don't need no stinking censor", we're grownups, dammit!

We have a lot of youths that ought to have full access to the News, and not have to have certain issues hidden from them by their parents.

Besides, I'm a grownup, dagnammit, and I, and a number of others find appropriateness important. We don't think it's censorship.

[itabot]

We have a lot of youths that ought to have full access to the News, and not have to have certain issues hidden from them by their parents.

Besides, I'm a grownup, , and I, and a number of others find appropriateness important. We don't think it's censorship.

No one has to hide issues from their children!

If you're so worried about the children, you shouldn't use profanity in your posts. I don't think that's appropriate.

[Squirrel Girl]

If you're so worried about the children, you shouldn't use profanity in your posts. I don't think that's appropriate.

I was parroting someone from your "side."

[itabot]

From dictionary.com

tr.v. par·rot·ed, par·rot·ing, par·rots
To repeat or imitate, especially without understanding.

Especially without understanding...I think you make a better parrot than you do a squrrel.

[Roppelcaver]

Itabot,

You write:

"Especially without understanding...I think you make a better parrot than you do a squrrel."

Indeed, this topic is one that we will never all agree upon, but personal attacks are out of line. I have noticed a couple of these, and I do not think it contributes much to the discussion (I thought your comment yesterday on the "feed" was not helpful either).

[Dan Sullivan]

but personal attacks are out of line

I agree, Roppelcaver........Show old squirrel girl some lov'en there Matt and agree to disagree.

Remember: "Insulting someone on the Internet is like being in the Special Olympics; even if you win, you're still retarded."

[cadyasoukup]

By rough count there seem to be about 40 folks who have posted on this topic. Several have posted more than once.

About 15 have posted that publishing a nude photograph in the NSS News is OK, and 11 have posted that publising a nude photograph in the NSS News should be verboten.

About 17 have posted that accepting nude art in a NSS Salon is OK, and 5 have posted that nude art in a Salon should be anathema to all true believers.

A middle path would be to continue to accept nude art for the salons, at the discretion of the salon chairs & judges (as is the status quo).

My thanks to Dave Bunnell for bringing up the awareness of the salons, the enormity of the editor's job at the NSS News, and what constitutes 'art' (hint - it may not have anything to do with science, safety or exploration and may have a lot to do with emotion and reaction).

Each year several images get thrown out of the slide salon by the judges because of safety issues - which most folks wouldn't know about since those images are NEVER shown.

The slide salon judges and salon judging helpers, in trying to judge in an environment which mimics the slide salon, donate at least a 10-12 hour day to the judging. They are adept at finding most of the problems with the slides, but they are not perfect. The Slide Salon judges have been truly dedicated and generous.

We had a slump of entrants in the past 5 years, with an uptick ONLY after we chose to accept digital images. Which have their own unique challenges as Photoshopping an image is the accepted norm in the digital world. (The cave nudes are, by definition, in the 'Surreal' category which expects extensive digital manipulation. Art is not bound by reality.)

Cady Soukup

[Roppelcaver]

This thread is interesting, but I would not draw conclusions from tallying opinions. This reflects only the folks that have participated. Who knows what the "silent majority" thinks?

In the end, we have to depend on reasonable editorial judgement (which I think we have); beyond that, any definitions that we attempt to put into place are worse than the problem we are trying to solve. After all, the subject picture has been characterized across the range from being superb art to revolting pornography. What's appropriate? I know what I think. But, surrending to reasonable editorial judgement is the best path.

In general, I think we have an excellent magazine, and Dave Bunnell does a great job. It would be a shame to impose more "rules".

[Billy]

I finally received the NSS News today and got to see what all the brouhaha was about. I had to chuckle when I saw the caption (#6) that I initially assumed was for the photo -- "So What If It's A Railroad Tunnel?"

As Carlin said, 'you don't have to be Fellini to figure that one out...'

[Wayne Harrison]

This thread is interesting, but I would not draw conclusions from tallying opinions. This reflects only the folks that have participated. Who knows what the "silent majority" thinks?

In general, I think we have an excellent magazine, and Dave Bunnell does a great job. It would be a shame to impose more "rules".

[Realms]

[Wm Shrewsbury]

Okay, finally time to jump into the fray... Add two more (Wm & Carolina Shrewsbury) to the "nothing wrong, perfectly fine, show more if you want to". Hanging on my wall at the house is a nude picture of my wife, taken by her 1st husband, in Cedar Ridge Crystal Cave (TN) in 1983. It's a good photo.

After the salon in Huntsville we had the pleasure to sit with Dave at the banquet. I have the same photo that appeared in the news as an occasional desktop picture. Not a single caver who has seen it (about 20 have been over to have slides scanned) has said anything negative. About of them were women. See! There are female cave photographers out there!

Carolina says that she will continue to allow tasteful nudity in the Fine Arts Salon. I have a picture of a woman rising from the floor as if the very mud created her, flowstone and other formations in the background. Didn't win a medal in Idaho, but I liked it because of the "merging" of humanity and caving.

Dave - good luck on your book. I will buy it. Let me know when it's available.

If you win with another slide entry, I look forward to seeing it in the News along with the other quality photos we see each year!

Cave Softly and Carry a Long Rope - TAG!

Wm & Carolina Shrewsbury