I'd like to thank Wayne and Allen for providing me with the links and info needed to discuss a cave trip with a scout master. I met them at our grotto meeting and had a chance to hash things out and set up a fun trip for the young scouts. I am very fortunate to have the Williams Canyon Project (WCP) and Cave of the Winds (COW) as a back yard resource. Your added info on the scouting requirements really helped line them ducks up for us.
Keith, I too saw red flags flying.
While earning the rank of Eagle Scout, I went on my share of winter camp outs. Enough so that I just don't do it any more. At least not on purpose. They were hoping for a Fulford or Spring Cave trip. I soon talked them out of going there and saving those caves for summer time. Both of those caves are not what I consider easy boy scout cave by BSA's definition, so they will have to find another caver to lead them if they decide to go there next summer.
But COW property does contain two caves that fit the BSA description for the age group I'll be taking. (Pedro's and Snyder's cave.) Both are short easy horizontal caves. One of them COW uses for visiting school groups, as part of their school program they offer. Both are just complexed enough to keep children entertained for several hours of exploration. No pits or vertical exposure, just good clean crawl ways with small rooms to visit.
I pointed out the fact that 2-3 hours was all the more time we needed to be in a cave with scouts under the age of 14. That's one area where the BSA guide lines really helped me discuss which caves would be appropriate for this group. Our own WCP rules pretty much cover the rest. As a trip leader in the project we follow a 24 page document of rules. Things such as equipment and protocol for the most part, meet the BSA standards. (Helmet, three sources of light, 5 people per trip leader, No more than 2 trips in a cave at once for a total of 12 people, etc.)
The new age restrictions on caves in the canyon also mirror the BSA requirements with most caves being restricted to age 14 and older. So basically there are really only two caves besides the main tour cave we are allowed to lead young people to, which made the choice for me a simple one.
This leader is a nice guy and all, but is new to Colorado. He was hoping I knew of a shelter cave or one with a large flat floored entrance room they could camp in. He mentioned there were ones back in his home state that were perfect for this type of thing. I left him with print outs from the links I received here in this thread. I also assured him that Colorado caves are nothing like back home. No big entrance rooms with flat floors around here. Hopefully he will read through the guide lines and figure out that caves and camping really don't go together in the BSA program.
I was surprised that he hadn't read any of the BSA guide lines for caving. He was interested in a possible merit badge for caving. I will pass along Wayne's link to merit badge.net to him. Thanks again you guys for all the help. It made our conversation a constructive one that appears to be headed down the right path and will fall within their own guide lines, not just the WCP guide lines.
Got to love that project caving, even with a lenghty set of rules to follow.
Does anyone know what happened to Pat Bingham, the moderator of this forum, from the last discussion board? I believe she was working on a web site for youth groups? Does anyone have a link to her site?