BSA Caving

Share ideas and experiences, seek advice for leading youth groups underground. Also visit Youth Group Caving.

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Postby amaddox » Oct 6, 2005 7:08 am

I agree these are red flags, but to be specific on guidelines it says;
"All caving, other than simple novice activities, should be limited to adults and young people 14 and older—members of Venturing crews and older Scouts in troops, and teams. "Simple novice activities" means commercially operated cave excursions and easy caves."

The guide defines what easy cave means. To me this means no climbing over shoulder height, no exposures, no vertical or ropes needed.
You can also make it clear that your only responsibility is to get the kids in, guide them through, and get out of the cave. The registered Troop leaders are responsible for their groups behavior and actions.
Also, when you go as a volunteer (not pay to cave) you are considered a guest leader and cover by BSA insurance. It would be a good idea to be registered as a BSA leader and take all the Youth Protection training, but not essential.
All in all, just use common sense and everything will be OK.


Allen Maddox
Philly Grotto Youth group Liaison
and
Troop 9 Committee Chair (usta' be the Scoutmaster)
Honey Brook, PA
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BSA trips

Postby tropicalbats » Oct 7, 2005 12:13 am

Allen,

Thanks for adding some of the specifics, as I really didn't do that.

I guess my general comment on this is that the BSA leader should bring to the table all the required BSA caving guidelines (and a tour permit), and the caver/leader should bring his knowledge of the cave and its requirements. When the troop leader seems totally unaware of protocol, a caver needs to step back a bit. If a caver seems unconcerned about such things, the troop leader needs to step back a bit.

I agree, generally it can all be worked out in the end and all is good, but if the scouts are asking a caver to give up a weekend of doing other fun stuff, then they should be on the ball up front if they want to get good leaders.

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Re: BSA trips

Postby Plethodon » Oct 7, 2005 8:23 am

Amazing to me with all restricttins on now BSA that we grew up in troops of 50 scouts, caving when leader not looking at camp learned outdoors to love. My first cave with single torch was such. Only patrol leader. Kids must be children, include esploring. Rules are good so is winking occasionally.
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Postby Dan Sullivan » Oct 7, 2005 8:42 am

I'd like to thank Wayne and Allen for providing me with the links and info needed to discuss a cave trip with a scout master. I met them at our grotto meeting and had a chance to hash things out and set up a fun trip for the young scouts. I am very fortunate to have the Williams Canyon Project (WCP) and Cave of the Winds (COW) as a back yard resource. Your added info on the scouting requirements really helped line them ducks up for us. :wink:

Keith, I too saw red flags flying. :eek: While earning the rank of Eagle Scout, I went on my share of winter camp outs. Enough so that I just don't do it any more. At least not on purpose. They were hoping for a Fulford or Spring Cave trip. I soon talked them out of going there and saving those caves for summer time. Both of those caves are not what I consider easy boy scout cave by BSA's definition, so they will have to find another caver to lead them if they decide to go there next summer.

But COW property does contain two caves that fit the BSA description for the age group I'll be taking. (Pedro's and Snyder's cave.) Both are short easy horizontal caves. One of them COW uses for visiting school groups, as part of their school program they offer. Both are just complexed enough to keep children entertained for several hours of exploration. No pits or vertical exposure, just good clean crawl ways with small rooms to visit.

I pointed out the fact that 2-3 hours was all the more time we needed to be in a cave with scouts under the age of 14. That's one area where the BSA guide lines really helped me discuss which caves would be appropriate for this group. Our own WCP rules pretty much cover the rest. As a trip leader in the project we follow a 24 page document of rules. Things such as equipment and protocol for the most part, meet the BSA standards. (Helmet, three sources of light, 5 people per trip leader, No more than 2 trips in a cave at once for a total of 12 people, etc.)

The new age restrictions on caves in the canyon also mirror the BSA requirements with most caves being restricted to age 14 and older. So basically there are really only two caves besides the main tour cave we are allowed to lead young people to, which made the choice for me a simple one.

This leader is a nice guy and all, but is new to Colorado. He was hoping I knew of a shelter cave or one with a large flat floored entrance room they could camp in. He mentioned there were ones back in his home state that were perfect for this type of thing. I left him with print outs from the links I received here in this thread. I also assured him that Colorado caves are nothing like back home. No big entrance rooms with flat floors around here. Hopefully he will read through the guide lines and figure out that caves and camping really don't go together in the BSA program.

I was surprised that he hadn't read any of the BSA guide lines for caving. He was interested in a possible merit badge for caving. I will pass along Wayne's link to merit badge.net to him. Thanks again you guys for all the help. It made our conversation a constructive one that appears to be headed down the right path and will fall within their own guide lines, not just the WCP guide lines.

Got to love that project caving, even with a lenghty set of rules to follow.

Does anyone know what happened to Pat Bingham, the moderator of this forum, from the last discussion board? I believe she was working on a web site for youth groups? Does anyone have a link to her site?
Dan Sullivan
 
  

Postby amaddox » Oct 7, 2005 10:17 am

Dan Sullivan wrote:I'd like to thank Wayne and Allen for providing me with the links and info needed to discuss a cave trip with a scout master. I met them at our grotto meeting and had a chance to hash things out and set up a fun trip for the young scouts. I am very fortunate to have the Williams Canyon Project (WCP) and Cave of the Winds (COW) as a back yard resource. Your added info on the scouting requirements really helped line them ducks up for us. :wink:

Keith, I too saw red flags flying. :eek: While earning the rank of Eagle Scout, I went on my share of winter camp outs. Enough so that I just don't do it any more. At least not on purpose. They were hoping for a Fulford or Spring Cave trip. I soon talked them out of going there and saving those caves for summer time. Both of those caves are not what I consider easy boy scout cave by BSA's definition, so they will have to find another caver to lead them if they decide to go there next summer.

But COW property does contain two caves that fit the BSA description for the age group I'll be taking. (Pedro's and Snyder's cave.) Both are short easy horizontal caves. One of them COW uses for visiting school groups, as part of their school program they offer. Both are just complexed enough to keep children entertained for several hours of exploration. No pits or vertical exposure, just good clean crawl ways with small rooms to visit.

I pointed out the fact that 2-3 hours was all the more time we needed to be in a cave with scouts under the age of 14. That's one area where the BSA guide lines really helped me discuss which caves would be appropriate for this group. Our own WCP rules pretty much cover the rest. As a trip leader in the project we follow a 24 page document of rules. Things such as equipment and protocol for the most part, meet the BSA standards. (Helmet, three sources of light, 5 people per trip leader, No more than 2 trips in a cave at once for a total of 12 people, etc.)

The new age restrictions on caves in the canyon also mirror the BSA requirements with most caves being restricted to age 14 and older. So basically there are really only two caves besides the main tour cave we are allowed to lead young people to, which made the choice for me a simple one.

This leader is a nice guy and all, but is new to Colorado. He was hoping I knew of a shelter cave or one with a large flat floored entrance room they could camp in. He mentioned there were ones back in his home state that were perfect for this type of thing. I left him with print outs from the links I received here in this thread. I also assured him that Colorado caves are nothing like back home. No big entrance rooms with flat floors around here. Hopefully he will read through the guide lines and figure out that caves and camping really don't go together in the BSA program.

I was surprised that he hadn't read any of the BSA guide lines for caving. He was interested in a possible merit badge for caving. I will pass along Wayne's link to merit badge.net to him. Thanks again you guys for all the help. It made our conversation a constructive one that appears to be headed down the right path and will fall within their own guide lines, not just the WCP guide lines.

Got to love that project caving, even with a lenghty set of rules to follow.

Does anyone know what happened to Pat Bingham, the moderator of this forum, from the last discussion board? I believe she was working on a web site for youth groups? Does anyone have a link to her site?
Dan,
You did good. You covered a lot of material and opened up a few eyes and gave them ideas to explore.
One suggestion I would make, if you really enjoy taking the youths caving, get involved with a Venturing Crew or Boy Scout Troop. Even as a part time Assistant Scoutmaster for special caving trips. I enjoy taking all the kids caving that go through Philly Grotto, but it's even better when you help these kids grow over a period of a few years. There's a lot to it, but this isn't the place to discuss that. I'd be glad to discuss this another time.

Allen
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Tour Permits

Postby amaddox » Oct 7, 2005 10:42 am

Dan and all,

I also almost forgot to mention. It's OK to ask for a copy of the Troops or Crews Tour Permit for you to keep for your files. It basically says that they've all read the and understand the Guide to Safe Scouting and that their Troop Committee and their Council Headquarters understands and approves that they are going on this trip and all insurance issues are satisfied.

Allen
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Caves and Scouts

Postby Wayne Harrison » Oct 7, 2005 12:10 pm

(has a link to the NSS site and the author is an NSS member)

by: Tray Murphy
Scoutmaster, Troop 891, Bon Air, VA
Life member of Richmond Area Speleological Society, Richmond, VA
National Speleological Society, NSS#29211 Life Member & Fellow of the Society

I’ve been in the mix of caving and Boy Scouting for many years, and I’ve heard every argument there is for and against Boy Scouts going into caves. Either on their own (that is, without the benefit of an experienced cave trip leader), or with members of grottos in one form of trip or another. In some places, cavers and Scouts get along fine. In others, total "disacknowledgement" that the other group exists. The arguments appear on the Internet from time to time, and this piece was first posted as a "Frequently Asked Questions" (FAQ) on several Internet news groups and mailing lists. This forum will give the issue a little greater exposure. And, maybe this will help to lessen the friction between the two groups (Scouters and cavers) that I’m hearing about on both fronts. This will be in two major sections, the first for Scouts and their leaders, then one for the cavers. First, a little background, and some common elements.

http://www.scoutresources.org/bs/caving ... aving.html
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Postby cave rat » Oct 12, 2005 6:44 am

Caving Merit Badge Couselor is the title that was giving to me by the local BSA Council I work with in the area. I agree that there is no national Caving Merit Badge out to date and I think there should be one.

My title is really just the Caving Director. I oversee 12 counties here in Alabama.
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Postby Patricia Bingham » Nov 15, 2005 6:11 am

Hi Dan and All,

I've been having severe computer problems (though I think they are mainly with the server) and can't access the website very often at all. The youth website is on the NSS site. Go to the NSS homepage, click on Youth group Info, go to the Youth Group Index and there are some brochures available. Hope this helps.

I can (usually) get e-mail and my address is nssyouth@caves.org

Pat
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